How long will your EMTB last you?

[Fivetones]

I don’t think we’re anywhere near the integration level where you can claim an EMTB is like a phone.

 

[Peaky Rider]

I hope that is the case. Its early days for me and my bike but it seems well made, perhaps quality control on earlier bikes/components is lacking, or its just a Friday bike as you say. Despite its showroom condition, does he punish it on every ride ?? That sounds like a lot of hassle he's had, the two other riders I know with Giants have no issues. The freewheel and controller issues are well known and now resolved, the front hub, brakes and motor not so.

He's 68 and rides it like a pussy cat.

 

[33red]

I don’t think we’re anywhere near the integration level where you can claim an EMTB is like a phone.

OK, just talking round numbers. I am about 60, about 50 years ago BIC became popular selling disposable pens in Quebec Canada. Before people were buying refills. A bit later it was BIC disposable lighters, before an empty one got refilled.We were putting garbage in a garbage can than in plastic bags. From the fifties with excess producing capacities marketing is selling stuff replacing humans with consumers. Nobody or allmost get a new cell with the idea to use it for 10 years.
When i started working about 40 years ago many were buying a car, motorcycle, bicycle for 10 years. That is not what many Ebikes are today. They are designed for a short life just like a cell phone.

 

[MattyB]

Maybe bike reviews should start focusing on tge actusl size of the bearings used in these motors and how theyre sealed. Seems like bearing durability is the problem in most cases. Reviews could highlight the motor that has the most durable battery and use that as a base for comparison. Ignite the bearing size/durability competition between brands

Certainly in the Bosch and Shimano that seems to be the weak point. Brose don’t seem to be affected as much, but that’s probably because many are warranted well before the bearings could go due to failed belts etc.

 

[Fivetones]

That is not what many Ebikes are today. They are designed for a short life just like a cell phone.

Respectfully, that’s nonsense. I maintain that they are just not that integrated yet. You can still maintain these things sat in the mud on a hillside so you can get home - mostly.

In addition, the driver for change is not necessarily longevity, it’s fashion. The two are very different.

 

[DrStupid]

I'm not worried. There are a few folk now who rebuild motors and I anticipate Shimano at least will keep parts going.

As for batteries, I expect to see battery rebuild/upgrade companies pop up too alongside the motor rebuilders. These are expensive things and we are willing to pay to get them fixed so the economics for people to run services should be there.

I'd like to see more backward compatibility though (E7000 being same mounting bolt pattern as E8000 is encouraging).

As for my bike, 2-3 years. Until the technology has significantly moved on I'll stick.

I agree completely with everything said here. I've got a general idea that companies want to make money, and as long as folks are wanting to spend money keeping their aging ebikes on the trail, a company will provide the services.
Giant recently released its earnings report, and while I'm no financial expert, ebikes look to be dominating growth even with , well... industry giants. To my simple way of thinking, this means numbers will be on our side with 100's of 1000s of units needing services.

Customers drive free market and we are the customers... I think.

Oh yea... I'm keeping my bikes until I decide I want shiny and new, and can afford shiny and new. My guess is 6 months to 3 years.

 

[Ananda]

Respectfully, that’s nonsense. I maintain that they are just not that integrated yet. You can still maintain these things sat in the mud on a hillside so you can get home - mostly.

In addition, the driver for change is not necessarily longevity, it’s fashion. The two are very different.

33red is bang on the money. 'Integration' is a long word but not an excuse for a bad quality controled product. Our economical model forces industry to be driven by quantity, quality does not make money.

And of course it is us 'consumers' to blame. No consipacy theories here.

 

[Dirtnvert]

Certainly in the Bosch and Shimano that seems to be the weak point. Brose don’t seem to be affected as much, but that’s probably because many are warranted well before the bearings could go due to failed belts etc.

That does present a comparison problem. An upgrade for a car/truck timing belt is a timing chain but i guess a chain would extenguish some of brose' selling points

 

[Fivetones]

33red is bang on the money. 'Integration' is a long word but not an excuse for a bad quality controled product. Our economical model forces industry to be driven by quantity, quality does not make money.

And of course it is us 'consumers' to blame. No consipacy theories here.

No-one would throw a £5k bike in the bin after 2-3 years because the battery needed a rebuild or the motor needed a service.

The more popular these things get the less likely that is too.

Integration has four syllables - I’m not sure your point there. Or the part about conspiracy theories.

 

[Ananda]

The price on the market of the now 5k ebike after 2-3 years makes my point.
The point about integration is that it sounds good but means nothing. At 50yrs old I lived most of my life without 'integrated' products which just refused to die and were maintained with minimal expense.

 

[Fivetones]

The price on the market of the now 5k ebike after 2-3 years makes my point.
The point about integration is that it sounds good but means nothing. At 50yrs old I lived most of my life without 'integrated' products which just refused to die and were maintained with minimal expense.

You make an assumption about my age. I’m similar age to you and I’ve maintained lots of wheeled vehicles. Including old classics.

I’m saying that these bikes are serviceable beyond warranty and I think market pressure will make that more likely. Low resale cuts both ways. People will start to choose those bikes that last longer or can be kept running longer.

I also maintain it is fashion that drives people to replace. They are far from disposable which was the point I disagreed with.

If you need proof, look at the clamouring for detail on the 2020 Levo. Essentially the same bike functionally as last year with different paint.

I still don’t know what you mean when you say integration means nothing. Tightly integrated products that aren’t user serviceable become disposable. That’s the consequence of tight integration and the emtb as it stands today has a way to go.

 

[33red]

No-one would throw a £5k bike in the bin after 2-3 years because the battery needed a rebuild or the motor needed a service.

The more popular these things get the less likely that is too.

Integration has four syllables - I’m not sure yo

Maybe not you but some want a new one for the new generation battery, the new generation motor or are scared to be without a warantee due to poor quality.

 

[Fivetones]

Good for them. As emtb blows up and stops being so niche and ‘dentist’ then there’ll be a wider market for bikes that are still ok to rip up and down hills. This will be good for resale value.

Also, don’t under estimate the market’s desire to be more environmentally sustainable.

Anyway I think you understand my point by now.

 

[Pukmeister]

The price of an EMTB still amazes me. I struggled with my conscience when justifying my purchase even though I got a very good deal on mine compared to RRP.

As demand is high, so are prices but I don't see thousands of pounds of technology in an ebike over its analogue cousin (Levo v Stumpjumper etc), nor many hundreds of millions in R&D expenditure just to adapt and fit a motor on a pushbike (versus say a cars development costs.)

I think manufacturers are getting rich on inflated pricing for "fashion item" bikes and the finance deals to fund them, which is why we see so many brands and models with more waiting in the wings and yearly updates to colours, spec and bling.

It's a growth market, fuelled by the emperors new clothes.

 

[33red]

The price of an EMTB still amazes me. As demand is high, so are prices but I don't see thousands of pounds of technology in an ebike over its analogue cousin (Levo v Stumpjumper etc), nor many hundreds of millions in R&D expenditure just to adapt and fit a motor on a pushbike versus a cars development costs.

I think manufacturers are getting rich on inflated pricing for "fashion item" bikes and the finance deals to fund them, which is why we see so many brands and models with more waiting in the wjngs and yearly updates to colurs, spec and bling.

There is some big marketing more than value IMHO. Maybe some retailers were scared by the big price tag so the solution was bigger price tag, potential to discount if need be. Potential to pretend offering interest free options to pay. Here when i look at a Norco i demoed and liked the 8,000$ canadian sugested retail price tag is insane. Same with Specialized. Maybe in 3-4 years we will be able to buy used but the market is not there yet, there are too little offerings to find our size.

 

[thebarber]

Certainly in the Bosch and Shimano that seems to be the weak point. Brose don’t seem to be affected as much, but that’s probably because many are warranted well before the bearings could go due to failed belts etc.

I've known more problems with specialized than other brands but I suppose specialized are probably the biggest selling

 

[davarello]

As far as my Levo Comp goes - for a $9K NZD bike I expect 5 years minimum on the motor. If they can't guarantee one for that long they should not be selling them.

Motor on mine died couple of nights ago - at 2200km (9mths)

 

[Rusty]

The price of an EMTB still amazes me. I struggled with my conscience when justifying my purchase even though I got a very good deal on mine compared to RRP.

As demand is high, so are prices but I don't see thousands of pounds of technology in an ebike over its analogue cousin (Levo v Stumpjumper etc), nor many hundreds of millions in R&D expenditure just to adapt and fit a motor on a pushbike (versus say a cars development costs.)

I think manufacturers are getting rich on inflated pricing for "fashion item" bikes and the finance deals to fund them, which is why we see so many brands and models with more waiting in the wings and yearly updates to colours, spec and bling.

It's a growth market, fuelled by the emperors new clothes.

Pretty much the bicycle industry is a total rip-off.
Just about every part on a bike is priced massively greater than it has any right to be. I look at the high use things like disk pads, cassettes, chains and see pricing so far apart from the cost of production that it makes me shake my head in wonder. Now I look at batteries for instance - my 700W/h battery for my Levo was $1500 NZD - that could retail for $500 NZD and still provide a generous profit to all involved - is a total rip-off.

 

[33red]

Maybe a tandem will be the future?
Carry an Xtra battery
an Xtra engine
a repair guy
talk about chainstay

 

[33red]

Pretty much the bicycle industry is a total rip-off.
Just about every part on a bike is priced massively greater than it has any right to be. I look at the high use things like disk pads, cassettes, chains and see pricing so far apart from the cost of production that it makes me shake my head in wonder. Now I look at batteries for instance - my 700W/h battery for my Levo was $1500 NZD - that could retail for $500 NZD and still provide a generous profit to all involved - is a total rip-off.

Yup i scratched my head 2 weeks ago.
My LBS was asking 49.99$ for brake pads so 100$ for front and rear.
I ordered online, received in less than 48 hrs real tiny pieces for 28$.
Not a cheaper version, the exact same.

 

[Rusty]

You make an assumption about my age. I’m similar age to you and I’ve maintained lots of wheeled vehicles. Including old classics.

There is quite an industry creating reproduction parts for the popular 70's motorcycles.

I’m saying that these bikes are serviceable beyond warranty and I think market pressure will make that more likely. Low resale cuts both ways. People will start to choose those bikes that last longer or can be kept running longer.

Have seen a battery for a Shimano e6000 repacked by a local company that does battery pack refurbishment for tradies - ended up as 680W/h and lighter then the original just by using the latest generation cells.
I also know my local rewinder would be easily able to rewind a motor and replace bearings - probably with better quality units easily enough, but would need an electronics shop to look at controller boards unless the OEMs make them available.

I also maintain it is fashion that drives people to replace. They are far from disposable which was the point I disagreed with.

I see this daily in IT. Have clients that replace phones, tablets and notebooks damn near more often than they change their underwear

 

[Gary]

My LBS was asking 49.99$ for brake pads so 100$ for front and rear.
I ordered online, received in less than 48 hrs real tiny pieces for 28$.
Not a cheaper version, the exact same.

was $49.99 the recomended retail price?
Because if it was your LBS probably paid close to $28 for the pads to keep them in stock. (possibly even more) They also have to pay staff, heating, lighting, rates, rent, taxes, shipping etc.

The mail order company you bought the pads from probably buy in huge bulk and make very little off each sale (but have none of the LBS overheads).

LBS can be expensive but very few are taking the piss with pricing.

 

[Pukmeister]

I see this daily in IT. Have clients that replace phones, tablets and notebooks damn near more often than they change their underwear

What about the ones that go Commando ??

 

[Pdoz]

Yup i scratched my head 2 weeks ago.
My LBS was asking 49.99$ for brake pads so 100$ for front and rear.
I ordered online, received in less than 48 hrs real tiny pieces for 28$.
Not a cheaper version, the exact same.

I'm willing to bet that if you'd asked at the shop they would have been able to sell those brake pads without the individual packages much cheaper ( from the bulk box they use in the workshop)

Unfortunately, we've changed the shopping style where we compare shelf prices with internet prices and forget that there is ( hopefully) a halfway enthusiastic human trying to keep his business viable

Edit - guilty as charged. Giant dropper post cartridge $60 onlune, $90 instore, so I trawled the net and upgraded to a oneupcomponents post for $200 - disposable price tag shopping

 

[Gary]

I'm willing to bet that if you'd asked at the shop they would have been able to sell those brake pads without the individual packages much cheaper ( from the bulk box they use in the workshop)

Let's not even speculate about what stock the LBS has.
there are litterally hundreds of different pads for bicycle brakes now.
you'd have to be an incredibly big/busy LBS to keep BULK quantities of EACH

 

[33red]

was $49.99 the recomended retail price?
Because if it was your LBS probably paid close to $28 for the pads to keep them in stock. (possibly even more) They also have to pay staff, heating, lighting, rates, rent, taxes, shipping etc.

The mail order company you bought the pads from probably buy in huge bulk and make very little off each sale (but have none of the LBS overheads).

LBS can be expensive but very few are taking the piss with pricing.

They were not in stock probably 4-6 days delay to get them. I understand paying more but 3.5 times is....

 

[Gary]

They were not in stock probably 4-6 days delay to get them. I understand paying more but 3.5 times is....

Ah..

So your friendly LBS guy/girl would have had to order the pads, the shop would have to pay full trade price (small quantity so not discounted for bulk etc.) AND probably pay postage on top (unless they were putting in a larger order. Then take delivery of them and call you to let you know they were in for you to collect (or have fitted)?

I totally get why you won't pay that though

 

[Gary]

what pads were they BTW?
I'm not in the Canada but that $49.99/£30? doesn't sound all that far off full RRP for genuine SRAM 4 pot pads or Shimano finned here.

 

[Jamsxr]

I’ll chop mine in when Shimano bring out a bigger capacity internal battery and possibly update the motor.

Most of the “innovation” seems to be around battery integration, and although the new bikes look great, they’re not really providing anything over and above what we’ve seen over the last few years.

 

[33red]

I do not know much about disc brakes so first i asked online what brake pads i wanted. I had heard that cheap ones last less time so it is even. I have read that some make more noise or resist more to heat. Being a light rider not focussed on speed i knew i wanted the variety with good modulation. So i got a suggestion that chain reaction had some for 9$ than a suggestion Jenson had some for 6.99$US so basically i new for 20$ canadian pads i wanted were available. I went to my LBS and boom same stuff was 100$. That is why i bought online wich is not my habit. Prices are correct when we include shipping, US versus canadian $. I want my shop to be open but there is a limit. By the way my bike is equipped with Magura. I am not sure about pounds. 1$ canadian is about 0.75$US, 1 euro costs us about 1.47$