Have Bosch missed a trick?

[Darren66]

Bosch have recently released their new CX gen 5 motor, Although they have made changes to the motor itself, the most interesting changes are to the battery technology. I appreciate that these things are years in development but an increase in torque and peak power would have been possible and very welcome.
Amflow/dji have caught all other motor manufacturers napping and it'll take those years to catch up, hopefully with this new(ish) platform, Bosch will have updated firmware in the pipeline to upgrade in the near future? with potentially better options (dji) already out there, Bosch will need to release any updates, if they exist, sooner rather than later!

 

[Bndit]

I don`t agree. Nobody really needs more, should buy motorcycle if current torgues/power is not enough. Personally I think how the motor behaves is more important and of course how tough it is. And of course how the bike RIDES! But of course, if you need that power just for uplifts, I get that. Dji have big numbers, but it`s not neccessary better than others, and that Amflow bike is shite But this is just my personal opinion, it`s free world, and customer can buy what he/she/something else, wants.

 

[whitymon]

same opinion as above.

Bosch feeling is closer to analog bike which is not nothing.

Up to a point you need to pedal or take a Surron.

 

[TheMirrorVision]

Sounds like Bosch already has some firmware in development for next year to get triple digit torque from the latest motor per some recent podcasts. Everyone needs to keep in mind the accelerated chain wear and need to replace chainrings and cassettes more frequently which will be expensive over time. Maybe we’ll see more steel components come out to combat the increased strain on drivetrains from the >100Nm motors.

 

[BeBiker]

...are years in development but an increase in torque and peak power would have been possible and very welcome.

No development needed there, and also no development possible.
Just leave the 250W-EU regulations class.
Those bikes exist for years, and just need a license plate and insurance.

 

[irie]

Have Bosch missed a trick?

No.

 

[Xman]

Sounds like Bosch already has some firmware in development for next year to get triple digit torque from the latest motor per some recent podcasts. Everyone needs to keep in mind the accelerated chain wear and need to replace chainrings and cassettes more frequently which will be expensive over time. Maybe we’ll see more steel components come out to combat the increased strain on drivetrains from the >100Nm motors.

Already on the market, shimano have brought out their Cues system. I had the 8000 series fitted to my Khatmandu. Got about 1000 miles under my belt and system 8s in great shape,definitely recommend

 

[Xman]

Ps, I did fit a steel chain ring as well

 

[Rocketb]

I just listened to a podcast with troyden from crestline talking about their recent Bosch motor deployment and the possibility of a firmware update coming to release triple figures on the new cx motor. From my understanding, Bosch has strengthened the motor unit and battery configuration to prepare for an update. Again this is based on a manufacturer interpretation.

 

[Lightme]

Which podcast is that?

 

[2WHLFUN]

Which podcast is that?

 

[mustclime]

I don’t know why everyone is calling this motor gen 5, it’s really more like gen 4.1. They changed the mounting points and added a plastic gear to quiet the rattling.
I am more interested in what Brose comes out with. I also am interested how the ZF runs. BOSCH may have really miscalculated the market by just improving their gen4.

 

[Rocketb]

E

Which podcast is that?

Emtb podcast

 

[MountainBoy]

Bosch have recently released their new CX gen 5 motor, Although they have made changes to the motor itself, the most interesting changes are to the battery technology. I appreciate that these things are years in development but an increase in torque and peak power would have been possible and very welcome.
Amflow/dji have caught all other motor manufacturers napping and it'll take those years to catch up, hopefully with this new(ish) platform, Bosch will have updated firmware in the pipeline to upgrade in the near future? with potentially better options (dji) already out there, Bosch will need to release any updates, if they exist, sooner rather than later!

Bosch made as much power as they targeted. It's not a challenge to make more, you just need more battery to compensate for the higher current required.

They could have missed on other metrics, I don't know because I haven't ridden the latest generation (happy with gen 4), but you can be certain they didn't miss on having more torque or peak power. That was never in the plan, and for good reasons.

 

[Redlemon]

I don’t know why everyone is calling this motor gen 5, it’s really more like gen 4.1. They changed the mounting points and added a plastic gear to quiet the rattling.
I am more interested in what Brose comes out with. I also am interested how the ZF runs. BOSCH may have really miscalculated the market by just improving their gen4.

Miscalculated the market ?

Bosch are taking over the market at full speed more than ever right now.

It'll take years for them to catch up even if their products are very promising.

 

[irie]

... BOSCH may have really miscalculated the market by just improving their gen4.

What do you think Bosch should have done instead of just improving their Gen 4 motor?

 

[edruid]

Not sure where i'd use more torque, am already looping out on hills. Maybe I'd do better going uphill in rock gardens? How long till the motor breaks (you don't get something for nothing, torque=strain=breakat some point. Also how long till I get hurt, jiteering along on top of cranked up bike??? I'm not hungry for more torque 85nM gen 4 CX has plenty, at 24kg. Now same torque on a bike weighing 18kg, that I'd sanp at.

 

[surlyrides]

Bunch of miles on the gen4 race on an orbea wild and personally it's already too much power. Maybe the e-bike market is attracting people who don't come from a background of riding acoustic bikes?? Admittedly I do enjoy getting a bit of exercise but I'm no Strava junky - I've had electric mtn bikes of all flavors since 2018 and I've never ridden a single one that didn't have enough power. I think it's more about the actual bike and how the motor delivers the power. Also I prefer lighter rather than heavier so would be psyched if DJI released an sl version that is smaller, lighter, less powerful and can power a 170/170, slack, Enduro smash wagon that is sub 17 kilos. I'd be a buyer all day long, take my money

 

[alancube]

I do think it would have been a nice idea to retain the gen 4 fixing positions and I wasn't sure I was keen on the nylon gear I saw?

 

[mustclime]

Miscalculated the market ?

Bosch are taking over the market at full speed more than ever right now.

It'll take years for them to catch up even if their products are very promising.

Dji, zf , upcoming Brose, upcoming Yamaha. They are all coming for the big B. Dji will flat out leave Bosch in the dust, Yamaha is water proof and has a much better Q factor I am waiting to see what Brose and zf work. Imo, any drive system under 100nm is going to be sucking wind in a year or two. Btw, if you are “looping out” maybe buy a bike with longer chain stays and steeper seat tube angle.

 

[Redlemon]

Dji, zf , upcoming Brose, upcoming Yamaha. They are all coming for the big B. Dji will flat out leave Bosch in the dust, Yamaha is water proof and has a much better Q factor I am waiting to see what Brose and zf work. Imo, any drive system under 100nm is going to be sucking wind in a year or two. Btw, if you are “looping out” maybe buy a bike with longer chain stays and steeper seat tube angle.

DJI have no dealer network in place, no proper warranty service, no established reliability and no large contracts as OEM to reach out to the market in any significant numbers...how the hell are you able to tell that they're going to nail all of this in a year before they even release their system via DTC chinese brand only ?

You're also implying that Bosch are going to sit and watch the competition take over, which is a very strange assumption.

 

[whitymon]

In the end no one is coming for anyone, different perspective.

- You want extreme power with meh trail bike and maybe some support go with DJI
- You want the best integration but not so reliable and soon deprecated motor, go with SRAM powertrain
- You want power, analog feeling and reliability first go with bosch

Etc, no need to argue that much, will it change in month/year to come, sure, right now this is how I perceive it.

NB: eg no LBS from 300km support ZF, Brose or Yamaha where I live, only Shimano/Bosch. This cannot be nothing for people when spending the cost of a second hand car.

 

[dumpy]

a fazua with a tad more power would also be fine. the way it mounts and lower weight are neat.bim not sure many need 100nm of torque, but around 75 would definitely be nice for most

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Having been in Whistler and Bellingham, with both the Bosch and DJI, the Avinox absolutely beasts the Bosch motor everywhere. We were actually using the DJI to tow the Bosch motor (that was also in Turbo mode) because the Bosch was too slow up the long climbs

 

[Madonas]

Bosch would do us all a favor and put ant+ communication in their motors so we can use our own garmin or whatever display.
That is the reason I bought a Giant reign e+3 . I have another 5 year old bike bike with a shimano system. it has the 7000series motor with almost 11000 km on the motor. It only has 60nm torque. I never felt I need more torque. I usually tune both bike to very low output to get range and use top torque for only the very steepest terrain.
The garmin display can be seamlessly swapped between my 2 bikes and feed I to the same garmin connect database.

 

[Mikerb]

the biggest trade off with more power is more heat and more heat means a bigger heat sink/bigger engine casing/more weight................or an alternative like an oil reservoir!!
Seems to me Bosch err on the conservative side and let any new development go through a market test period before bringing anything else new. To me it that makes sense as a development process. A few of the reviews I have read state that there is a discernable difference in how the power is delivered and controlled with the new sensors now installed and the freewheel rattle has all but been eliminated ( not that I have noticed the rattle on either of my bikes with the existing Gen4!).
I know we all ride different terrain but for me the biggest gain in terms of power delivery is to make it more accessible in a greater range of cadences which is exactly what I have done using the tuning in the Fow app. As it stands on the steepest and loosest climbs I tackle I invariably use a gear no lower than gear 10 and I only use EMTB mode. I dont need more absolute power.

 

[Xman]

Mikerb
I use to work in the auto industry and Bosch were my main competitors and your assessment is spot on and typical of Bosch bringing out new products to the market place. I have no doubt that the ratings will be upped in due course, I've seen it all before

 

[irie]

As I see it in principle there are two extremes of product introduction and development:

The first is to introduce a conservative performance product where reliability comes first then later to upgrade performance.

The second is to introduce a maximum performance product then to modify the product in response to failure rates.

Bosch falls into the former camp (imo).

 

[Xman]

Correct