First post looking for opinions on motors

[spinny25]

Evening people
I currently have 2 ebikes one running bosch older gen CX line motor and my main bike running E8000 motor both have similar characteristics when they hit the way to low 15 mph 25 kmh limit
i have been trying to push myself whilst on lockdown and it seems to be working
I use Strava to monitor my progress and have been watching times and leader boards as a added incentive ( carrot and the stick )
and i am noticing that on a lot of my ride analysis / i am doing above the 15 mph and both motors are not the best past the 15 mph limit due to added resistance
so i was wondering what peoples thoughts/opinions on different motors like BROSE FLYON YAMAHA are regarding the resistance or lack of it after the 15 mph limit
I am aware there are loads of ways of avoiding this eg de restricting the bike with chip or software but i would prefer to keep standard

thanks for reading

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

The 15mph assist limit is there because of government legislation in your particular area. Dealerships have to comply otherwise they would not be able to sell or worse yet, they could possibly be legally liable for a public accident involving an ebike. There are ways to bypass the limiter but just be aware that the liability may land on you, and in some instances may be traceable during scheduled servicing and void your warranty.

The motor doesn’t add resistance as a deterrent when you go past the 15mph limit, rather it just stops assisting - although it does give that impression.

I appreciate your situation as many of us experience but that is the intended outcome of the limitation. Fortunately the legal assist limit in my area is 20mph (or 32kph) and that’s only just adequate. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for that limit to be lower.

Some of the earlier motors just suddenly cut out when the assist limit is reached and so if you’re traveling on top of that threshold, you get a terrible hunting surge. The newer motors are apparently designed to taper-off the cut out to create a more subtle threshold.

My bike has a 2019 Yamaha +SyncPro motor and the cut out is not too abrupt.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think you're asking which motor has the least resistance when it's not assisting?

Older bosch motors are quite draggy.

I didn't feel the Shimano was too bad. You can push on quite well past the cut off, chunky tyres probably cause more resistance like dhr/dhf.

I find the brose slightly easier still than the Shimano, but that could be psychological.

I think the bosch gen 4 is supposed to be very good after the cut off.

The mahle in the levo sl gives no resistance and can pretty much be pedalled like a normal bike.

 

[spinny25]

I think you're asking which motor has the least resistance when it's not assisting?

Older bosch motors are quite draggy.

I didn't feel the Shimano was too bad. You can push on quite well past the cut off, chunky tyres probably cause more resistance like dhr/dhf.

I find the brose slightly easier still than the Shimano, but that could be psychological.

I think the bosch gen 4 is supposed to be very good after the cut off.

The mahle in the levo sl gives no resistance and can pretty much be pedalled like a normal bike.

You was right I was trying to ascertain what people’s thought

I think you're asking which motor has the least resistance when it's not assisting?

Older bosch motors are quite draggy.

I didn't feel the Shimano was too bad. You can push on quite well past the cut off, chunky tyres probably cause more resistance like dhr/dhf.

I find the brose slightly easier still than the Shimano, but that could be psychological.

I think the bosch gen 4 is supposed to be very good after the cut off.

The mahle in the levo sl gives no resistance and can pretty much be pedalled like a normal bike.

you was correct I was trying to ascertain which motors People think have the least drag once cut out as I am always looking at newer bikes and newer tech so trying to make informed decision on next purchase

also I do have the chunky 2.8 dhr tyres on but with the terrain I go on it isn’t a option to change them really
I watch tons of reviews online about motors and resistance and torque levels but not always sure there not trying to push a certain bike /product

but I would say I do love the shimano e8000 off-road for smooth power delivery it was just yesterday bombing down a canal early morning at around 17 mph my thoughts was that it was hard work to make myself stay above the 15 mph threshold and not use assistance

 

[Zimmerframe]

also I do have the chunky 2.8 dhr tyres on but with the terrain I go on it isn’t a option to change them really
I watch tons of reviews online about motors and resistance and torque levels but not always sure there not trying to push a certain bike /product

OK .. well DHR/DHF are really draggy !! really really draggy ! Grippy .... but draggy .. When I first put them on the Shimano bike they took 5-10kph of my top end speed on some descents. Something like a michelin e-wild/wild (if you need a 29) are pretty much as grippy (will spin up a bit more in gloopy mud) but hugely less resistance and hugely quieter if you're on hard surface.

but I would say I do love the shimano e8000 off-road for smooth power delivery it was just yesterday bombing down a canal early morning at around 17 mph my thoughts was that it was hard work to make myself stay above the 15 mph threshold and not use assistance

This might just be a case of getting used to it.. The problem with going from assistance to no assistance is it feels a bit like you hit a wall. I found the default "eco" assistance was too high on the Shimano (for me), so used stunlocker to drop that down. My normal "canal" (dry conditions) would average 36kph (22mph) even with DHR/DHF - though it sounds like you're trundling along on a tractor. With the change being less abrupt and your body not having to adjusted from being assisted as much, it doesn't seem so bad - if that makes sense..

 

[R120]

Yup, the main thing you are feeling post the cut off is the sudden impact of peddling a heavy bike with draggy tyres without assistance, and thats the same no matter what motor you have (although the older Bosch was definitely a pig past the limit). If your general riding doesn't require a "hardcore" mtb tyre designed for DH/enduro riding then going with a lighter faster rolling tyre will make a noticeable difference.

Also if your suspension is set up on the soft side, thats going to be sucking a lot of energy too.

We have several regular ebikes in the family, and they run fast rolling 700c tyres, and the cut off point is no where near as noticeable, even though they are just as heavy as the EMTB's I have.

 

[Akiwi]

I have had the Shimano, the old Bosch and now the new Bosch motors. I think the new Bosch motor feels much easier to pedal with the motor off than the other two, but OTOH maybe that is because I am fitter now and do a lot of biking now with the motor off.

The big fat tyres definitely add to the drag. A few times I have been chugging along thinking I am cool, I am fast, when an old grandma or little child has whizzed past me on their city bike making me feel like a snail.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

...so i was wondering what peoples thoughts/opinions on different motors like BROSE FLYON YAMAHA are regarding the resistance or lack of it after the 15 mph limit
I am aware there are loads of ways of avoiding this eg de restricting the bike with chip or software but i would prefer to keep standard...

Sorry there Spinny, I misunderstood your request when de restriction was mentioned.

The only way to feel the true motor resistance by itself is to remove the chain and pedal the cranks with the power switched off (to mimic a motor that has reached its assist limit). This will remove all the other factors from the equation, such as drive train efficiency and tyre rolling resistance which can vary from one bike to another.

The old Bosch CX motor has an internal ratio where their proprietary small chainring rotates X2.5 times per one crankarm rotation. They did this to increase the torque output when powered - but unfortunately when switched off, the pedal motion has to run past a step-up drive to turn the chainring 2.5 times. On paper this should not be disadvantageous because a smaller chainring will have greater leverage to drive the cassette. But in practice, the internal ratio has inherent resistance... which is most probably what you are feeling.

All other motors that use normal sized chainrings (34 or 36 or 38T) will have a 1:1 crank to chainring ratio. Passive motor resistance behaviour may differ between various motors with different nominated torque outputs between manufacturers. I can only speak from personal experience about the MY19 Yamaha e+ SyncPlus Pro motor (tuned specifically for Giant), that its unpowered pedal resistance is negligible. With power it is rated at 80 Nm which kicks-in early and favours the lower cadence zones. Hope this helps.

 

[spinny25]

Sorry there Spinny, I misunderstood your request when de restriction was mentioned.

The only way to feel the true motor resistance by itself is to remove the chain and pedal the cranks with the power switched off (to mimic a motor that has reached its assist limit). This will remove all the other factors from the equation, such as drive train efficiency and tyre rolling resistance which can vary from one bike to another.

The old Bosch CX motor has an internal ratio where their proprietary small chainring rotates X2.5 times per one crankarm rotation. They did this to increase the torque output when powered - but unfortunately when switched off, the pedal motion has to run past a step-up drive to turn the chainring 2.5 times. On paper this should not be disadvantageous because a smaller chainring will have greater leverage to drive the cassette. But in practice, the internal ratio has inherent resistance... which is most probably what you are feeling.

All other motors that use normal sized chainrings (34 or 36 or 38T) will have a 1:1 crank to chainring ratio. Passive motor resistance behaviour may differ between various motors with different nominated torque outputs between manufacturers. I can only speak from personal experience about the MY19 Yamaha e+ SyncPlus Pro motor (tuned specifically for Giant), that its unpowered pedal resistance is negligible. With power it is rated at 80 Nm which kicks-in early and favours the lower cadence zones. Hope this helps.

cheers so generalisa

 

[spinny25]

Well I would say the information given about the tyres is correct
Took wife’s Cube hybrid hard tail out today which has slimmer tyres the difference was as mentioned on this thread was about 4 mph difference from my 2.8 minion DHR maxiss tyres it was a lot easier on the legs after cut off but a lot less stable on loose gravel

I knew the tyres would have a greater rolling resistance But 4-5 mph is a lot but they work great flying down a hillside so maybe Some slimmer tyres for me for my more sedate rides

cheers guys for input