DIY Kindernay XIV gear hub installation

[TPEHAK]

DIY Kindernay XIV gear hub installation

Finally I have installed the Kindernay XIV gear hub kit Kindernay ┃The most advanced, high-speed, internal gear hub┃ on my 2018 Haibike xduro allmtn 6.0 size S and today I am going to went thru the process so you can see what you need to to in order to install this kit on your bicycle.

Originally my bicycle had Shimano Deore 10 speed transmission on the real wheel and the 11t and 13t sprockets did not lasting long and started skipping probably after about 300 miles (11t) and 1000 miles (13t). The chain (10S KMC X10e) lasted about 800 miles before 0.5mm stretch. I do not like to maintain my bicycle and change chains and sprockets and constantly spend money on those components, so I decided to try gear hub system.

There are two high end gear hub systems on the market at the moment, Rohloff and Kindernay. Rohloff is pretty complicated for installation on the modern eMTB and requires a bunch of spacers and adapters while Kindernay is plug and play straight forward solution for standard 12mm diameter rear thru-axle with standard spacings options. Kindernay has 14 speeds with 543% gearing range which is even more than my previous 10+2 Shimano Deore speed setup (11-40 teeth rear sprockets and 32-44 teeth front sprockets). And I was planning to combine Shimano Deore 2 speed front shifter with 32 and 44 sprockets with Kindernay which gives ridiculously huge 747% gear ratio range!

So if you decided to swap speed system on you bicycle on Kindernay XIV you need to confirm you rear wheel thru axle is 12 mm diameter. Then measure the width of your rear wheel hub (For 2018 Haibike xduro allmtn 6.0 it is 148mm, this information also can be found in your bicycle specifications list in internet).

Count amount of rear wheel sprockets on your rear wheel rim (I decided to reuse my original rear wheel rim, it is 27.5" Alexrims MD35 and it has 32 sprockets holes). Then check you rear brake rotor diameter (my brake rotor diameter is 180mm) and find correlated rotor diamter for Kindernay setup using information from this page Kindernay Brake Rotors - Kindernay (The Kindernay brake rotors are custom made. They share their mounting bolts with the SWAP shell, saving weight and space. The large bolt circle means that they are stiffer and weigh less. The 7 spokes minimize the number of resonance frequencies and together with the stiffer rotor gives less resoncance and squeal under wet conditions. They are bigger than your standard rotors, with 173mm rotor replacing stock 160mm rotors, and the 193mm rotor replaces 180mm rotors, and 216mm rotor replaces 203 mm rotor).

Now you can start to go shopping for Kindernay XIV. Kinderday offer Kindernay XIV and Kindernay XIV Fatbike products. For regular eMTB you need Kindernay XIV, so go to this page Kindernay XIV - Kindernay and select the parameters of your bicycle you just figured out (rear wheel axle sizes, Swap Cage sprockets amount, rear brake rotor size, pick also twosie hydraulic shifters and 16t cog on the order page. Please note the kit does not include chain tensioner, so if you have full suspension bicycle, or use front chainrings shifter, or your rigid bicycle has no chain tension adjustments then you need to add this item to the order on this page The Kindernay Chain Tensioner -. They include one oil fill with the kit, and you need to change the oil first time after 300 miles and then change oil in the gear hub each 3100 miles of each year whichever comes first, so if you need extra oil with your order here is the page to pick more oil Velvet Oil - Kindernay

It took about 3 weeks to get the kit here in the USA.

With the kit they send you instructions about how to assemble the kit and how to lace the wheel. Wheel lacing can be different depending on your wheel and rear axle spacing, so make sure you know the wheel lacing parameters before ordering spokes. Once you figured out the lacing pattern and wheel parameters you can use spokes calculator and instructions from Kindernay to calculate spokes length and buy those. My original rear wheel rim 27.5" Alexrims MD35 uses 2 mm diameter spokes with 16mm long spokes nipples, so I just planned to buy new spokes with same diameter and and new spokes nipples with the same length. Effective Rim Diameter (ERD) for 27.5" Alexrims MD35 is 567.4mm according internet search Alex MD35 650b, 27.5 rim dimensions | Freespoke

Here are wheel parameters for 2018 Haibike Haibike xduro allmtn 6.0 size S with 27.5" Alexrims MD35 rear wheel rim:
-Hub/flange diameter left side: 110mm
-Hub/flange diameter right side: 110mm
-Flange offset left side: 25mm
-Flange offset right side: 25mm
-Spoke hole diameter: 2.6mm
-Spoke diameter: 2mm
-Effective Rim Diameter (ERD): 567.4
-Number of spokes: 32
-Lacing pattern left side: 2 cross
-Lacing pattern right side: 2 cross

Use this spokes length calculator Spoke length calculator for wheelbuilders or this #1 Wheel Building SPOKE CALCULATOR Now Online | PROWHEELBUILDER | Prowheelbuilder.com and add 2mm vs. the calculated spoke length due to the staggered spoke hole pattern of the SWAP shell for 26", 27.5’’ and 29’’ wheels.

Here are the results

So for my bicycle spokes length should be 247.5mm+2mm=249.5mm. Closest standard spoke length is 250 mm. I ordered 32 black color spokes 250 mm length on eBay. Brand is Sapim 32 Custom Length Spokes, 14G, Sapim New BLACK with Nipples, 80 to 308mm. | eBay

Those spokes go with black 16 mm nipples, but I needed chrome plated finish nipples to match the front wheel nipples so I ordered those nipples here (DT Swiss Brass Nipple 2.0mm spoke x 16 mm long).

It is also necessary to buy cables inlets to route two 5 mm diameter hydraulic speed shifter cables inside the frame of 2018 Haibike xduro allmtn 6.0. I bought two Haibike Cable inlet 2x4mm (you can also use two 4+5 mm inlets Haibike produces) Haibike Frame Cable Inlets 2x4mm . Haibike does not do 5+5 mm inlets for the cables so I modified these 2x4mm Haibike Cable inlets drilling the holes larger with 5 mm mill

Do not forget to buy a chain. I decided to keep the 2 speed front chainring shifter so I bought fresh 10 speed chain (136 links KMC e10 EPT 10 Speed Anti-Rust Chain E-Bike KMC e10 EPT 10 Speed Anti-Rust Chain E-Bike Mountain Road Hybrid 10spd 136L Bike 766759710996 | eBay ). But if you are planning to use single front chainring then you can use more durable and cheaper single speed chain like KMC e1 chain.


Here are the list of essential tools you will need in order to lace the wheel with the Kindenay hub:

- Spokes nipples wrench (I used Rixen & Kaul KLICKfix SPOKEY Professional 3,25mm )
- Spokes tension measuring tool ( I used Ztto TC-1 and it worked flawlessly )
- Speed Nipple Bit to pre-tension spokes fast, to remove the old spokes fast (I used Unior Speed Nipple Bit with 1.5 mm tip diameter and 2.5 mm tip length )
- Spoke Prep ( I used Wheelsmith Mini Spoke Prep, 15ml - blue )

You will also need to have torque wrench, rear cog wrench, chain breaker and another regular bicycle maintenance tools (but you likely already have them if you decided to install Kindernay due to you are tired to maintain your regular drivetrain).

Once you have all necessary tools and parts you can start assembling process. It took me two days to finish installation. The most difficult and time consuming part was wheel lacing and trueing. Lacing is actually super simple and straight forward process if you know the assembling sequence, but the first time is going to be real struggle. In my case I was not able to find any information or pictures of 32 spokes 2 cross lacing pattern and lasing sequence, so I spent a lot of time just visualizing a figuring out this particular pattern before I actually started building the wheel. And even I started building the wheel I found I did it with wrong sequence and in the middle of the assembly was not able to install another spokes, so I had to undo my assembly started it over again with correct assembly sequence. So pay close attention how to lace the wheel and which sequence of spokes installation you use, it is super critical if you don't want to do your work twice.

So first of all remove the rear wheel from your bicycle, note where and how the reflector on the wheel is attached, note where and how the magnet speed sensor trigger on the wheel is attached ( you will have to place the reflector and the magnet on the new wheel in about the same place). Remove the wheel tire, remove the reflector, remove the magnet, carefully remove the wheel spokes holes cover tape (on Alexrims MD35 you can reuse the rim tape, it is not glued and you can remove it using screwdriver to lift the edge of the tape and slide it off the wheel just like tire), remove the cog.

Measure the existing spokes tension on you wheel with your spokes tension measuring tool. Use this tension for reference when you will trueing the rim with new spokes with Kindernay hub. In my case the spokes tension is around 27 on one side of the wheel and around 30 on opposite side of the wheel (the wheel is not symmetrical), so I will tension the new spokes within 27-30.

I recommend you to watch some videos on YouTube about bicycles wheel lacing process to familiarize yourself with the process before you start working further. It is super critical to disassemble and assemble the wheel the proper way because of you can damage the rim if the spokes if you do this wrong.

This is good a video with wheel disassembling and lacing basics ( please note the video shows wrong lacing pattern and assembling sequence and if you will follow it you will end up with situation in the middle of the build when it is not possible to install spokes further, but this is a good video to show you the idea)

https://youtu.be/gXKONETx3GA

Also watch some videos about how to true and tension the wheel. I used bicycle frame with zit ties instead of fancy trueing tool and it is cheap and works flawlessly just like expensive trueing stand

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=truing+wheel+on+bike+

Attach the wheel to the bicycle and start loosening the spokes nipples with the spokes nipple wrench 1 turn each nipple per time all way around one by one, keep loosening them this way until those will be really loose. It took me about 4 turns. Do not turn each nipple more than 1 turn per time before turning 1 time each other nipple otherwise you can damage the rim.

When the spokes a loose you can take the Speed Nipple Bit and electric screwdriver and unscrew each spoke nipple completely

Detach the old hub with old spokes from the rim

Clean the spokes threads with alcohol and cover with SpokePrep

Now, from this point I will describe assembling process for 32 spokes 2 cross lacing pattern which is required for Kindernay hub. If your Kindernay hub requires different amount of spokes and different crossings amount this sequence will be different! Do your research first. there is a good Android application for wheel pattern visualizing "Kahaki Tool" can help you. There is also another 3D application for visualizing I just found. I wish knew about those applications before I started this work, that would help me to skip a lot of troubles.

- YouTube

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So, what I ended up not finding the 32 spokes 2 cross pattern I built 3D CAD model with this pattern to use it as a guide

Lubricate the spokes nipples under head surface with some oil (I used chain lube for this).

 

[TPEHAK]

Start from the Non Drive Side (brake disk rotor side) and attach all Trailing Spokes sliding them into the necessary hub holes from outside in and attaching them to the necessary holes on the rim with the spokes nipples (trailing spokes pull the rim when you pedal). The Trailing Spokes on Non Drive Side (Brake side) on my pictures are red.

You can use Speed Nipple Bit to reach the spokes nipples. Attach the nipple loose, just 5-10 turns in enough

Then flip the wheel on Drive Side (sprocket side) and attach all Trailing Spokes sliding them into the necessary hub holes from outside in and attaching them to the necessary holes on the rim with the spokes nipples (trailing spokes pull the rim when you pedal). The Trailing Spokes on Drive Side (Sprocket side) on my pictures are dark blue.

Then flip the wheel on Non Drive Side (Brake side) and attach all Leading Spokes sliding them into the necessary hub holes from inside out and attaching them to the necessary holes on the rim with the spokes nipples (Leading spokes pull the rim when you brake). The Leading Spokes on Non Drive Side (Brake side) on my pictures are green. Pay attention the Leading Spokes crosses the Trailing Spokes above at the first intersection (going from the hub to the rim direction) and the Leading Spokes crosses the Trailing Spokes under at the Second intersection.

Then flip the wheel on Drive Side (Sprocket side) and attach all Leading Spokes sliding them into the necessary hub holes from inside out and attaching them to the necessary holes on the rim with the spokes nipples (Leading spokes pull the rim when you brake). The Leading Spokes on Drive Side (Sprocket side) on my pictures are purple. Pay attention the Leading Spokes crosses the Trailing Spokes above at the first intersection (going from the hub to the rim direction) and the Leading Spokes crosses the Trailing Spokes under at the Second intersection.

Now assemble the Kindernay hub and install it on the bicycle frame with axle and tighten all the spokes with Speed Nipple Bit and electric screwdriver. Speed Nipple Bit allows tighten all spokes about equally. The Speed Nipple Bit I used has 2.5 mm pin-spacer, and it tighten the rim right on the money (tension measuring gauge shows 25 after tightening with this Speed Nipple Bit. Use low speed on electric screw driver.

Measure the spacing between the rim the the swingarm on the left and the right sides and calculate the offset from one side dividing the sum by 2. Attach zip ties for guiding during wheel trueing process. True the rim

Assemble the wheel with Kindernay hub and brake, attach the reflector, the magnet for speed sensor, the rim tape, the wheel tire and tube, and pump up it to the necessary pressure.

Detach the original derailleur from the bicycle and loosely attach the chain tensioner

Attach the rear brake caliper spacer-torque arm holder. I found the fasteners for the brake caliper spacer-torque arm holder from the Kindernay kit was about 1.5 mm longer then it is necessary to attach the spacer to the frame (the holes in the Haibike frame are shorter than the fasteners) so I just shortened those screw down a little to mount the spacer on the frame properly

Loosely attach the brake caliper to the spacer

Unscrew the cables inlets from the frame where you planning to route the hydraulic shifter cables cables. There are two 5 mm diameter hydraulic cables for shifting gears you need to route from the rear wheel speed hub to the handlebar. I planned to route the both cables from the rear wheel hub to the handlebar thru the opening in the frame with the original rear derailleur cable. Then the upshift cable goes thru the left side frame cable outlet and bows around the steering neck to be mounted to the right side handlebar shifter. The downshift cable goes thru the right side frame cable outlet and bows around the steering neck to be mounted to the left side handlebar shifter.

You can use the old shifter cable to pull the new hydraulic shifter cables thru the frame. Make sure you marked the upshifting and down shifting cable so you will pull those thru appropriate outlets. I unscrewed the shifter levers from the cables to be able to pull them thru the frame.

Pull out the downshift cable from the frame

Pull out the upshift cable from the frame

 

[TPEHAK]

Install the cables inlets

Attach the hydraulic cables to the shift levers and the shifters levers to the handlebar. As you can see I was able to keep both speed shifters for front chainrings and for rear downshift on one left side of the handlebar.

Wrap the cables with cable protective sleeves. I found them laying around but you can find those for cheap on Amazon

The hydraulic hub speed shifter parts do not have nozzles covers, so I just found some rubber cups to cover them from dirt

Zip tie the cables to the frame

You can trim the hydraulic cables to make them shorter if you want to and bleed the hydraulic shifter with mineral oil but I did not, it works OK without it. You also can find dome helpful tutorials on the Kindernay YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/c/KindernayCorporation/videos

Trim the chain to the necessary size and adjust the tensioner. I found 107 links + 1 master link works the best for 2018 Haibike xduro allmtn 6.0 size S with 32+44 teeth front sprockets.

Done!

Will see how it will work comparing with regular derailleur system in the long term. So far so good. Shifting required pretty precision lever actuation thought otherwise you can shift in between the gears and feel and hears grinding sound, but it is easy to shift the right way, you feel resistance bums in the shift lever action and you just need to ease pedaling during shifting, pass the shift lever resistance bump (you can shift up to 3 gears up and down if yo want to) and keep moving the lever up to the the next resistance bump and the then release the lever once you feel next resistance bump and then proceed with full force pedaling. You can shift without pedaling or even without moving on the bicycle. Shifting on non-moving bicycle is more resistive than shifting on moving bicycle with pedaling without force but not too bad. The gear hub produce more noise than regular derailleur and generates clicking sound like overrunning clutch.

Finally I can shift precisely to any gear and I hope all the gears will work just fine for unlimited amount of time (it is better be this way for such price).

The cool thing is the rear cog can be flipped after it is worn out so you can double the cog life span. The cog is standard single speed Shimano cog (Shimano RL CS-MX66 16T), pretty thick and looks durable, it is also cheap. You can install any other size standard cog on the gear hub, maybe even smaller 13 or 11 teeth to raise the top speed, but my bicycle top speed with 16 teeth cog and 44 big chainring is already bigger than it was with old derailleur with 11 teeth cog and 44 teeth chainring. The chain also wraps around more teeth on the cog comparing with regular derailleur system which should prolong the cog life and reduce chance of chain skipping.

You can also install thicker more durable steel single speed front chainring and increase durability and longevity of the system. Single speed chainrings are also cheaper too and can be flipped after it is worn out so you can double the chainring life span too.


I also weighted the components to compare 10 speed Shimano Deore and Kindernay weight

So 10 speed Shimano Deore rear derailleur setup weights 2019.2 g. Kindernay setup weights 2494.4g. If you unmount the front chainrings speed system you will probably got Kindernay lighter than whole Shimano Deore 10+2 speed system and still have bigger gear range! (Shimano Deore 10+2 speed system with 11-40 cog and 32-44 chainring gives 500% gear range and Kindernay XIV gives 543% gear range!).

I will keep posting findings here during gaining more miles on my setup.

 

[steve_sordy]

Hell of a project!

 

[apac]

I'm not sure what I just scrolled through, but you look very involved. Best of luck.

 

[Tonycube]

Outstanding work fairplay

 

[TPEHAK]

Important notice! Check the Kindernay fasteners after the first rides!

After two rides I noticed some brake rotor screws are loose! At least 3 screws was unscrewed significantly.

Well, I applied Loctite Blue (medium strength) on all 7 brake rotor screws and tightened them. Initially I installed them without Loctite.

I also marked the each screw position

The Loctite had about 8 hours to set. Then I commuted on the bicycle for 40 minutes and you guess what I found? Some screws got turned off about 1/8-1/4 of a turn!

And this is just after 40 minutes ride! Well, I did wheelies all the time and rode the bicycle at maximum assist level mode with pretty torque Yamaha motor, and it looks like the hub fasteners was not able to hold constantly altering force (the screws hold the brake rotor and the wheel hub and transition pedaling and braking force at the same time and during the wheelie that force are constantly changing the direction when you are balancing on the rear wheel). The screws are also pretty long and have pretty small diameter (M4 thread) and they go thru the brake rotor and thru the hub before they engage with the tapped holes inside the SWAP shell (which is the part the wheel spokes are attached to) so the long unsupported potion of thin screws can flex under the shear load causing them slowly turning off.

First two times I torqued the hub fasteners with my trusty hand. According Kindernay instruction it is required to torque the brake rotor fasteners to 2.5 Nm. Now I decided to use torque wrench and checked my bare hand torque I did first times and found that I was not too far off from the required torque (I torqued the screws about 1/8-1/4 of a turn under the necessary torque).

Now I reapplied Loctite Blue and used Torque wrench and set all the screws to 2.5 Nm and marked the new screws position to check them in the future.

I am not sure that 1/4 of a turn will make the difference, but we will see. If it will not hold I guess I will apply Hight Strength Loctite Red on the screws and maybe torque them to 3 Nm? I also can apply Assembling Loctite Green on the brake rotor, the hub and the SWAP shell mating surfaces to try to prevent the parts sliding under pedaling and braking forces causing the screws loosening.

And if this will not work I think the only ultimate solution will be to buy different M4 screws with tall heads, drill holes on the screws heads and secure the screws with safety wire. I do not know what else I can do.

Another thing I found is the hydraulic shifting actuator can rotate! It probably happens whet I press the shift lever pretty hard and friction force is not enough to hold the actuator in the place and it rotates. On the picture below you can see the face of the actuator is not parallel to the line of the swingarm - but originally I attached the actuator parallel to the swingarm line.

 

[maynard]

I thought I wanted one of these. Then i saw what's involved. I don't have the time or patience for this . Good work man . Like the other guy said . Fair play . Ill have to keep giving money to sram .

 

[maynard]

I will be showing this thread to my dad . He is very handy . Maybe he might convert to Kindernay.

 

[TPEHAK]

There is no real difficulty other than wheel lacing and trueing. Local bike shop can do it for you if you feel it is too complicated. The information about which wheel measurements you need to figure out can be found here. The cables can be routed old school way outside the frame with zip ties if you think it will be too difficult to push them inside the frame. If you want to route the cables inside the frame make sure you protected the cables tips with some tape to prevent scratching them during pushing them thru the frame. The rest of work is just wrenching the screws.

By the way, it looks like 2.5 Nm torque and blue Loctite hold those brake rotor screws. I already have a few rides since then and the screws stay in the place yet.

You might need to revisit the bike shop after a few rides to true the wheel again after the spokes are set. Mine wheel developed a few millimeters wobble after a few rides.

 

[Gary]

2.5Nm is pretty low for rotor bolts. Are the rotor mount threads particulalry shallow on the hub shell?

 

[TPEHAK]

The rotor mount threads are M4. Normal rotor uses 6 of M6 screws located on smaller diameter hub. The Kindernay uses 7 of M4 screws located on bigger diameter hub.

 

[Gary]

Not a great decision by kindernay

 

[markus datgloi]

Wow, very extensive, complete tutorial and review.

I would also consider a Kindernay but with what I read/see here, its not for me and it wouldn't fit my YT (even with all of their options).
Newer emtb's don't have a spoke magnet but its integrated in the disc brake, see picture.
My YT has all cables guided through the carbon frame and there are no 'free' holes.
Drilling into the frame for the 2nd shift cable ? And lose the warranty ? No way.
Having separated up/down shifters is nice but the handlebar becomes more cluttered and by the look of all those handles, shifters and triggers, longer fingers and more fingers seem to be needed.
Note that SRAM engraved a bolt torque of 6.2 Nm in the disc.

 

[TPEHAK]

First oil change after 300 miles, the oil is turned black! Originally the oil is red

 

[markus datgloi]

Have you contacted Kindernay about what that color could mean ?
If the dark oil smells and feels like the new filling and is still a bit transparent then its maybe not bad.
At 10 Euro per filling it is not a bargain and you may have to change more often before it turns into polish oil.
Maybe you can use some other lube when the hub is outside the warranty period.

 

[TPEHAK]

I have not contacted Kindernay about the oil color. My motorcycle transmission oil turns black too.

 

[TPEHAK]

Update! I have a little over 500 miles on this setup and the chain is already sthretched over 0.5 mark under 0.75 mark. I use same model of 10 speed chain I used on my 10 speed derraleur system. It looks like chain wear rate is about the same as I had on my 10 speed derraleur.

So what I see is chain wear does not depend on speed system and shifting. On the derraleur system you can shift as frequently as you want and as hard as you whish and it will not accelerate the chain wear comparing with single speed or constant mesh chain drivetrain if you use the same chain.

 

[highpeakrider]

How does it perform climbing hills?
Does he gearing equate to say a 1x12 setup?
Looks interesting though great write up.

 

[H.E.]

How does it perform climbing hills?
Does he gearing equate to say a 1x12 setup?
Looks interesting though great write up.

I put the gearing Info there:

Kindernay XIV my experience so far

Hi, So, I actually bought the Kindernay for another bike, but since i have a new one i decided to try it out with that. I was about to get a Rohloff but Rohloff does not allow the online Sale of the hub you can adapt to 142/148mm. They are only to be sold localy and the dealer needs a certain...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[TPEHAK]

How does it perform climbing hills?
Does he gearing equate to say a 1x12 setup?
Looks interesting though great write up.

It climbs hills fine. The gear range is way wider than 1x12 setup (minimal ratio is lower and maximal ratio is higher)