Bosch Domination?
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
It's not DH though.
It's Enduro. (a bit like multi stage DH but with quite a lot of shite pedally sections, some even uphill)
The power stage is ALL uphill and motor choice could easily mean as much as 10+ seconds difference for the rider.
10seconds in a closely fought enduro is massive
The power stage results are only fair between riders using the same motors
jooles
Active member
Mind Enduro is starting to look very DH on some courses. Agree ref motors. Also longer chainstays
Is there actually a chart/list/pdf anwhere which actually shows which riders are on which bikes ? I can't find anything.
The GLP2 is obviously a great mix of motor/bike/weight and in the right hands is a capable bike (which doesn't seem to fall apart in completions for some reason).
Someone could argue that the lighter SL or Rise bikes could do well because of their lower weight making up for less power - but does this just show that if you have a capable rider, that's less of an issue ? Or that the courses are laid out more to take advantage of more power ? Reading comments from people who've ridden the power stages, they're not just straight uphill, they're a challenge in their own right.
The GLP2 is obviously a great mix of motor/bike/weight and in the right hands is a capable bike (which doesn't seem to fall apart in completions for some reason).
Someone could argue that the lighter SL or Rise bikes could do well because of their lower weight making up for less power - but does this just show that if you have a capable rider, that's less of an issue ? Or that the courses are laid out more to take advantage of more power ? Reading comments from people who've ridden the power stages, they're not just straight uphill, they're a challenge in their own right.
Mountains do look similar. Yes.
Any Uphill section momentum alone can't carry you past does not belong in a DH track.
Certain EWS stages have 30s+ of uphill in them
@Zimmerframe Pretty much every EWS rider has an instagram account. And they all tend to promote the bikes they're on fairly regularly
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That bottom lever isn't going to do much with that inner cable slack so that's one you can get rid of.View attachment 71284
i'm so emotive..when i'm under pressure, stressed climbing on a rock avoiding to fall down, now i mischange the dropper with the gears...can imagine what can i mess up with this
IIRC when EMBN or similar did a feature on the EWS-E last year, the lighter riders had a significant advantage on the uphills unsurprisingly. They also mentioned that most riders where not using the top power mode as you had more control in EMTB Mode/Trail etc.
If you look at the riders at the top I think its more about whose the most experienced on EMTB's and a good rider.
Also the Lapierre riders are riding lighter bikes with external Bosch 500wh batteries.
So if you look at Nico he riding the lightest bike ( which he himself designed for E-Bike racing), with the most powerful motor, and is also sub 70kg - throw in the experience he has and its a surprise if anyone else wins.
I think its a valid enough series, I dont think the motor plays too much a part in splitting the field, but I also think it does enough to make the choice of bike a factor in the results.
If you look at the riders at the top I think its more about whose the most experienced on EMTB's and a good rider.
Also the Lapierre riders are riding lighter bikes with external Bosch 500wh batteries.
So if you look at Nico he riding the lightest bike ( which he himself designed for E-Bike racing), with the most powerful motor, and is also sub 70kg - throw in the experience he has and its a surprise if anyone else wins.
I think its a valid enough series, I dont think the motor plays too much a part in splitting the field, but I also think it does enough to make the choice of bike a factor in the results.
jooles
Active member
Along with long chain stays. The GLP2 has shorter CS hence why probably less uphill traction but more DH pop and faster cornering.
?
I‘d like to know what strength loctite was used by Lapierre mechanics to keep the rear axles in
I would like to see the amount of used Wh of battery as variable. It would force motors to be more energy efficient and riders balance on using electricity. This same could apply on Strave ebike segments.
It should though be so that it wouldn't be possible to beat ebikes with normal MTB and 0wh battery usage = more difficult tracks.
It should though be so that it wouldn't be possible to beat ebikes with normal MTB and 0wh battery usage = more difficult tracks.
Far easier just to ignore Ebike racing and Ebike strava
View attachment 71284
i'm so emotive
Reminded me of this....
I have a feeling that we kind of already opened this can of worms. Very interesting to see where it will end in couple of years.
jooles
Active member
Given eMtb take/adoption has exploded; in 40 years taking part in “extreme” sports have never witnessed the sheer growth of a sport. Especially one in which you need to invest an average of (guessing) £6,500.
Ergo it seems natural to get people competing on such bikes, to further promote the genre, drive development and contunye strong growth in sales.
However one could argue they haven’t really found the best way to ‘compete‘ on eBikes. These aren’t MX bikes that have a range of 100 miles flat out across varied terrain, there aren’t DH rigs that are basically shuttle up and blast down. They aren’t a blend of XC and DH, aka Enduro. Ebikes kind of fall between the gaps. Hence why only a tiny percentage of scoring marks on the EWS-E was allocated to actually using the battery. Well from what I could see.
Perhaps a more adventure related completion environment would better suit. Thoughts (from someone totally non versed in these things) based on the strengths of an Ebike, ie being able to go places and distances one would struggle to on a non Ebike.
- Based on conserving power over distance (Wh suggestio above)
- Navigation; run like orienteering
- Timed sections that are less DH and more “aggressive XC”
- Team work, maybe kind of tagging like a relay
- including sections you would have to push up on a pedal bike
- Distances that you would struggle to cover on a pedal bike eg over 100km a day.
- Maybe something like the paragliding equivalent of the X Alps comps
Steve Jones did an epic Alps ride/ comp. That kind of format seems good. Something you’d never consider on a pedal bike unless a total pain nutter.
To me they have taken an existing format designed for pedal bikes and tried to squeeze ebikes in.
Just my thoughts perhaps another thread is emerging. Maybe we cli.d get together and design something ?!
Ergo it seems natural to get people competing on such bikes, to further promote the genre, drive development and contunye strong growth in sales.
However one could argue they haven’t really found the best way to ‘compete‘ on eBikes. These aren’t MX bikes that have a range of 100 miles flat out across varied terrain, there aren’t DH rigs that are basically shuttle up and blast down. They aren’t a blend of XC and DH, aka Enduro. Ebikes kind of fall between the gaps. Hence why only a tiny percentage of scoring marks on the EWS-E was allocated to actually using the battery. Well from what I could see.
Perhaps a more adventure related completion environment would better suit. Thoughts (from someone totally non versed in these things) based on the strengths of an Ebike, ie being able to go places and distances one would struggle to on a non Ebike.
- Based on conserving power over distance (Wh suggestio above)
- Navigation; run like orienteering
- Timed sections that are less DH and more “aggressive XC”
- Team work, maybe kind of tagging like a relay
- including sections you would have to push up on a pedal bike
- Distances that you would struggle to cover on a pedal bike eg over 100km a day.
- Maybe something like the paragliding equivalent of the X Alps comps
Steve Jones did an epic Alps ride/ comp. That kind of format seems good. Something you’d never consider on a pedal bike unless a total pain nutter.
To me they have taken an existing format designed for pedal bikes and tried to squeeze ebikes in.
Just my thoughts perhaps another thread is emerging. Maybe we cli.d get together and design something ?!
Mountainebiker
Member
I think it depends on the terrain. Motor difference and rider weight make a big difference where it's just uber steep, but when it is slightly less steep but more technical (rock steps and tight technical switchbacks), there is more emphasis on rider technical skill and line choice than pure uphill speed.
Mountainebiker
Member
Large sections of the liaisons in Pietra Ligure EWS E last year were pretty much non rideable without an ebike.
Interesting. All I can think of is the parallel to motor sports where power won races but doesn't necessary equal a fun car to drive. There was also a hell of a lot of cheating going on.. but that's just racing.
The benefit to regular emtb users is trickle down effect from manufacturers innovation to do each other over. As an end user i'd pick fun over performance.
My bets for EWS-E innovations;
Traction control + intelligent over run
Some kind of launch control for going up really steep sections (combining walk mode's minimum speed, max torque and over run)
Battery as structure - cars and motor cycles have been doing this for years now
Integration of wireless shifting controlled by the motor
Less fluff like fancy displays and other such things that get easy broken
Uniform bolt head sizing
The benefit to regular emtb users is trickle down effect from manufacturers innovation to do each other over. As an end user i'd pick fun over performance.
My bets for EWS-E innovations;
Traction control + intelligent over run
Some kind of launch control for going up really steep sections (combining walk mode's minimum speed, max torque and over run)
Battery as structure - cars and motor cycles have been doing this for years now
Integration of wireless shifting controlled by the motor
Less fluff like fancy displays and other such things that get easy broken
Uniform bolt head sizing
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Is it motor sport or not?
Most of your ideas would hinder a technically proficient rider not help them
Also. You guys do realise EWS-E is just a mickey mouse race attended by 40-50 folk? and apart from the few ex pro riders who compete in them no one's even heard of most of them.
The motors have to be stock units regulated by EU restrictions so no innovation is going to be made just to suit a miniscule amount of folk for one stupid climbing stage in a few races a year.
I wouldn't even call it a "sport" at all Doc
Copy that. Nothing to see here.
Or maybe the pedals and call it what?
Pivot
E*POWAH Master
I for one am delighted that Bosch is starting the eMTB arms-race. It is a high profit margin business, competitors will have to respond and it will drive innovation.
If ebikes are regulated on max Watt and assisted speed, there is an opportunity in other areas, e.g. power delivery, or get rid of the derailleur from the last millennium. It might be fine on the road… off road it gets ripped off.
If ebikes are regulated on max Watt and assisted speed, there is an opportunity in other areas, e.g. power delivery, or get rid of the derailleur from the last millennium. It might be fine on the road… off road it gets ripped off.
Nah most of this is software, either the manufacturers will do it or some 3rd party will edit the software for maximum performance.
I could see walk mode beign used on a hill climb as anti-stall (tbh I'm surprised no ones not ones been caught with their walk mode set to do 25kph)
Bosch are already doing that overrun thing on a half pedal, would make logical sense that combine it with traction sensing and maximum torque.
The shifting has already been talked about where the motor picks the moment to shift so not to snap chains my thoughts are what else could that be used for? Shifting without pedalling?
EWS-E is micky mouse now but most sports start off like that
Are you new to mountainbiking in general?
Traction off road will never work on an eMTB. Specially on a lightweight (or bike that’s better the lighter it is) bike with hardly any power on varied terrain…. cost v weight v actual performance gain and it’s a non starter imo.
I see the benefit on a 200+bhp superbike that’s trying to spit you off. On consistent tarmac.
But even then it’s taken years for it to actually work well enough for it not to be a hindrance for most….
All id ever want to see from any form of e bike racing / development is lighter bikes, with more efficient reliable motors and larger capacity lighter batteries….
The rest ain’t broken so don’t need fixing imo
Beekeeper
🍯Honey Monster🍯
Will we see other manufacturers start to pull out of motor production in a similar scenario to Nokia, Blackberry, Palm etc.
Generally, no. It's a growth segment with more coming every day. Though some obviously decide it's not part of where they want to be business wise, like continental who dropped out.
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