Bike computer vs phone computer? Whats the best

[carlbiker]

Hey guys,

I bought https://amzn.to/3lXK3su in the amazon sale recently (£100) without really knowing prior if it would be good to use for trail riding or not, I didn't have time to find out first.

Question is:

What ticks all the boxes here:

1) User generated trails that are voted on and you can use when you turn up to a new trail center or similar?
2) Locks on really well gps wise
3) Can upload trails or data through the cloud and not need a cable (we're in the 21st century!)
4) Can track routes and save, or upload to a profile somewhere
edit: 5) has turn by turn navigation

Second part of the question would be:


If its to be a phone computer then what apps to are user orientated the most, I can't imagine standard apps having every trail mapped out?
If its to be something like a Garmin then what is used with that.

Cheers

 

[Mteam]

Strava on your phone is good for most of that , it has pretty much every trail I've ever ridden on it, and if it doesnt have a trail you can add it yourself , and then the rest of the world can see it , the various segments (aka trails) dont have any concept of voting for them, but you can see how popular they are by looking at the leader boards of times and the number of people that have ridden down them .

Seeing as you've already bought the garmin, sign up for a garmin connect account (free) , and a strava account, link the two together, install both apps on your phone then whenever you save a ride on the garmin it should sync up to the garmin connect account which will automatically push it to strava (sounds complicated but isnt), or if you just want to use your phone to do everything (ie record rides, view them in strava etc) then just download the strava app and use it directly on the phone.

 

[Tim1023]

Just a couple of notes about the Strava app:
- The route planning and route heatmap (to see which paths are popular) are both part of the paid subscription
- ebike riders seem to be second class citizens in Strava as there's been lots of bitching about ebike riders stealing King of the Mountain trophies. I can understand this, but the hating isn't needed. If Strava implemented ebikes correctly, then it would be better for all.

Note re the second point: This is just from what I have read as I don't have my ebike yet, so haven't been through the pain (or pleasure) of setting it up and using it. Perhaps someone with experience could chime in here.

 

[Deleted member 7464]

Strava is wildly incorrect, I can ride with my mate through a section and it will usually give massively different times even though we are the same all the way through the section. They also disallow your koms if they feel they couldn't do it. I've had that a few times now.

 

[Mcharza]

Strava is for those guys who focus on KOM hunting. Paid product with bad maps. No topos

 

[Mcharza]

Answer to the 2nd question. I'm using Komoot and yes it's paid app, but it's a one time fee (about 30€) and you get the whole world.
You can use Komoot with a phone and Garmin device's.

 

[carlbiker]

Answer to the 2nd question. I'm using Komoot and yes it's paid app, but it's a one time fee (about 30€) and you get the whole world.
You can use Komoot with a phone and Garmin device's.

Its the trails, like roads I've no interest in at all really, can just use my phone for that, or drive (using my phone)....like I was at Lee quarry Lee Quarry Mountain Bike Trail and it would be nice to select a trail, if Strava has all of it then great but when I went to Leeds urban bike park it didnt seem too, komoot seemed better but then that was trying to guide me down some wrong sections.

Short of me going onto kickstarter to start the worlds first mtb trail specific community driven app that offers turn by turn directions, whats the best thing if Strava or Komoot isn't it?

 

[Mcharza]

Short of me going onto kickstarter to start the worlds first mtb trail specific community driven app that offers turn by turn directions, whats the best thing if Strava or Komoot isn't it?

When doing that, don't behave like Strava and Trailforks. 1st they collect all community rides and after that they switched to paid app

 

[mark.ai]

Pretty sure you can get Trailforks on the Garmin devices (but I've never used it though ...)

Or you can install your own maps on them, e.g. from here: Openmtbmap.org - Mountainbike and Hiking Maps based on Openstreetmap
And if those maps don't have the trails you need on them, then you can even add the trails to them using OpenStreetMap (Garmin maps and OpenMTBmap both use the data from OpenStreetMap) - and then they will be available to everyone else too

 

[carlbiker]

what is the most popular and engaged with app / program would you guys say? Like if you want a trail for a new place whats the one that never lets you down? Does it exist?

 

[Gary]

Word of mouth. Seriously.

 

[Gary]

Trailforks/strava is the goto for less socially skilled/connected trail rapists

 

[carlbiker]

When doing that, don't behave like Strava and Trailforks. 1st they collect all community rides and after that they switched to paid app

Yeah thats dumbassed, simply gamify the app instead to give some incentives and find other ways to raise funds just to cover costs, otherwise it stays free for life.....I might have a proper look into this, if I cant find the one I'm after I'll launch a campaign and see what happens! End of the day, look at some of the other business models such as games industry like fortnite, they give the game away for free but they do depend on ingame purchases, like skins or silly loot boxes, I'm not sure what the equivalent for ingame items would be regarding mtb trails/stuff

 

[Gary]

Yeah thats dumbassed, simply gamify the app instead to give some incentives and find other ways to raise funds just to cover costs, otherwise it stays free for life.....I might have a proper look into this, if I cant find the one I'm after I'll launch a campaign and see what happens! End of the day, look at some of the other business models such as games industry like fortnite, they give the game away for free but they do depend on ingame purchases, like skins or silly loot boxes, I'm not sure what the equivalent for ingame items would be regarding mtb trails/stuff

what exactly is dumbass about it? And what are you going to have a look into?
Developing software to rival Strava and Trailforks 10years+ of collated activity and trail data?

Even without ingame purchases Fortnite is more expensive to play for a year than Strava or trailforks.

 

[carlbiker]

what exactly is dumbass about it? And what are you going to have a look into?
Developing software to rival Strava and Trailforks 10years+ of collated activity and trail data?

Even without ingame purchases Fortnite is more expensive to play for a year than Strava or trailforks.

Whats dumbassed about Strava etc sucking the mtb community in to then decide to hide access behind paywalls, is that the question or?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Strava probably didn't take exactly the right route with their latest changes, but whatever you do won't make everyone happy.

I did consider throwing my toys out of the pram and stopping using it, but in fairness it still does everything I want from it for free.

You can still see top 10 times on segments, so arguably it's "Strava, making poor people faster" ... so they can see where they are in the top 10

I know some people say it's not accurate, that mainly falls down to what device you use it with. iPhones were notoriously inaccurate as they only took a GPS reading every 10 seconds to save power. The main problem with that was the algorithms were iphone bias and would work out segments times finishing at the previous recorded point. So if it hit a time 1 second after the segment end, it would give your time as the one it recorded 9 seconds before that. I think they've improved this lately with some changes to the algorithms. (I've tested this extensively using Garmins recording with borrowed iphones at the same time and then spend hours retrospectively editing segment start and end points to see how it worked out what it did)...... I'm sad.

If you use a phone with decent GPS chips which still has good line of sight (not buried in a bag behind your tin foil sarnies) it's often just as accurate as a high end dedicated GPS .. or near as for what anyone really cares about when playing - this is playing after all !

 

[Gary]

There's still a very good free version Strava. Premium features have always been a part of the app.
Pay or don't.use it or don't.
I'm really not in the slightest emphatic about a bunch of spoilt adults riding around on multi thousand pound bicycles moaning about having to pay a yearly subscription to access timed comparisons on a sports data logger app.

So yeah. What's dumbass about it?

And what are YOU going to look into?

 

[Zimmerframe]

There's still a very good free version Strava. Premium features have always been a part of the app.
Pay or don't.use it or don't.
I'm really not in the slightest emphatic about a bunch of spoilt adults riding around on multi thousand pound bicycles moaning about having to pay a yearly subscription to access timed comparisons on a sports data logger app.

So yeah. What's dumbass about it?

And what are YOU going to look into?

Do you think we can do a kickstarter to pay for my Strava ?

 

[Gary]

TBPH I don't actually see the point in paying for Premuim at all if you're just using an Ebike

 

[RickBullotta]

I ended up getting an unlocked/renewed iPhone 8 (no SIM/no cellular), an OtterBox Defender case, and a RAM mount. I'll use it on my MTBs and my dirt bike. I just prefer the apps in the iOS ecosystem (GPS Tracks, Trailforks, Strava, MTB Project) to the built-in capabilities of the Garmin. And I've had multiple issues with Garmin GPS's (Edge and Fenix) acquiring a GPS signal. I also like the ability to switch portrait to landscape mode, to take pictures with it, and so on. Plus it should work fine for making an emergency call if needed without a SIM.

All in it was about the same price as a Garmin 530.

 

[carlbiker]

There's still a very good free version Strava. Premium features have always been a part of the app.
Pay or don't.use it or don't.
I'm really not in the slightest emphatic about a bunch of spoilt adults riding around on multi thousand pound bicycles moaning about having to pay a yearly subscription to access timed comparisons on a sports data logger app.

So yeah. What's dumbass about it?

And what are YOU going to look into?

Well your missing the point I think which is had people known they were being duped into providing free content for Strava to then start charging for they simply would not have participated, thats dumbassed....get over it.

As for what I'm looking into, if I cant turn up to any given trail park, hit scan, select route turn by turn guidance, I'll have a stab at getting one built....not saying its an easy thing to do, but its also not impossible like you might suggest.

 

[RickBullotta]

Well your missing the point I think which is had people known they were being duped into providing free content for Strava to then start charging for they simply would not have participated, thats dumbassed....get over it.

As for what I'm looking into, if I cant turn up to any given trail park, hit scan, select route turn by turn guidance, I'll have a stab at getting one built....not saying its an easy thing to do, but its also not impossible like you might suggest.

Check out GPS Tracks - I think it has something like that:

GPS Tracks Manual

 

[carlbiker]

I ended up getting an unlocked/renewed iPhone 8 (no SIM/no cellular), an OtterBox Defender case, and a RAM mount. I'll use it on my MTBs and my dirt bike. I just prefer the apps in the iOS ecosystem (GPS Tracks, Trailforks, Strava, MTB Project) to the built-in capabilities of the Garmin. And I've had multiple issues with Garmin GPS's (Edge and Fenix) acquiring a GPS signal. I also like the ability to switch portrait to landscape mode, to take pictures with it, and so on. Plus it should work fine for making an emergency call if needed without a SIM.

All in it was about the same price as a Garmin 530.

Hey, sounds like you've got it sussed? I've an Iphone7 which I'm thinking of converting to a trail computer after upgrade to a new phone, debating about the iphone 12 atm or an android with a decent camera. Do you plug your phone into the display to charge? Which app gets your vote for just turning up and cracking on without having to start porting things xyz? Surprising to see the GPS on garmin being worse than the iphone too, interesting as I have the Garmin Edge explorer still in its box. Perhaps multi GPS is needed like GPS + Galileo + Glonass would help on tracking accurately, not sure if garmin offers that or if theres an affordable option for mtb use

Edit just saw your gps tracks comment cheers

 

[Gary]

Well your missing the point I think which is had people known they were being duped into providing free content for Strava to then start charging for they simply would not have participated, thats dumbassed....get over it.

Oh FFS!
No one was "duped"... all those participants had FREE access to strava's full leaderboards in return for their data for years. And can revoke their data from Strava if they really feel butthurt about Strava's new terms.
Yeah. Some folk really do need to "get over it".

As for what I'm looking into, if I cant turn up to any given trail park, hit scan, select route turn by turn guidance, I'll have a stab at getting one built....not saying its an easy thing to do, but its also not impossible like you might suggest.

I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick but aren't you a relative noob to mtb?
Trail centres/bikeparks really don't need ANY turn by turn guidance. That's kinda the whole point of them.
As for building an App to allow riders to scan any area and be given turn by turn guidance on routing, Do you have any idea the sheer amount of trails there actually are in the UK?

I'm not suggesting it's impossible. But it's certainly not doable by one man.

 

[carlbiker]

Oh FFS!
No one was "duped"... all those participants had FREE access to strava's full leaderboards in return for their data for years. And can revoke their data from Strava if they really feel butthurt about Strava's new terms.
Yeah. Some folk really do need to "get over it".


I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick but aren't you a relative noob to mtb?
Trail centres/bikeparks really don't need ANY turn by turn guidance. That's kinda the whole point of them.
As for building an App to allow riders to scan any area and be given turn by turn guidance on routing, Do you have any idea the sheer amount of trails there actually are in the UK?

I'm not suggesting it's impossible. But it's certainly not doable by one man.

Depends, like the place I went too had many non noob word of mouth (seriously) MIL type guys....guess what more than one group were lost asking for directions and sure they were put right by us so your right but that might not always be the case..I'm not saying to use as standard but more a 'get me back on track' type thing...just convenience and then say if there is a connecting route from a to b then that might be useful. It might be gps tracks does just that....I don't know the full history of strava, I'll maybe spend this weekend testing trail apps out to see whats what.

Well yes, noob to mtb...but I try to fast track best I can.....number of trails well hopefully 'the' app will tell me right? What is it?

Trying to do any business as one man is futile, been there, worn this T-shirt many times already, but one man can easily plant a seed right?

 

[carlbiker]

Dual-Frequency GNSS - An important location feature your phone is probably missing interesting to see how mobile phones can have multi sat tracking

 

[Gary]

Well yes, noob to mtb...but I try to fast track best I can.....number of trails well hopefully 'the' app will tell me right? What is it?

I do have Strava premium but I don't actually use apps to navigate at all mate. I don't even bother to look at the leaderboards or any of the other features tight wads cried about losing when Strava changed it's terms last year.
I've no idea how many trails there are in total in the UK but I do know roughly how many there are in my own locale and most ridden riding spote. I have well over 40 miles of rideable singletrack straight from my front door within a 3 mile radius that I happen to know every inch of.
This actually includes knowing whether a route will be rideable from recent weather, current season and forest/farming work.

30min drive away is the tweed Valley which is probably the most densly populated network of mtb trails in the country (UK). The many hills to either side of the main road (A72) for 20 miles from Peebles to Selkirk are around 2000ft in height and are littered with litterally hundreds of trails. with new trails popping up and being built all the time (while others from time to time are demolished) I've ridden in this area on and off for almost 30 years and probably know 95%~ of all of trails in the area and along with that what difficulty/level of riding they are, likelihood of trail conditions, trail closures, forestry work etc. Plenty locals know the trails far better than I.
You simply can't "fast track" any of this information.
Good luck "building" an App that can scan an area and put together "routes" in areas densly populated with a vast array of trails of varying difficulty/condition etc.

Trying to do any business as one man is futile, been there, worn this T-shirt many times already, but one man can easily plant a seed right?

out of interest. what is it you do? and what contacts do you have to claim that you think you could do a better job than Strava and Trailforks?

 

[F4Flyer]

Bike computer is far better- way more data, much more accurate in the mountains, and way longer battery life. I just went from a Garmin 510 to a Garmin 1030. Another nice thing- if I crash, I do not want my phone to go crashing down on some rocks. It is well protected in my pack.

 

[GeekEcosse]

I agree, the difference between using a mobile phones GPS and that of a dedicated device like a Garmin is a revelation.

I was looking to find a route this week which I could not find on my OS map or google maps. I had never used my ancient Garmin Edge 510 for navigation but thought I would give it a whirl. Unbelievably it managed to find the trail I had been looking for and while it simply gave me a line to follow and beeped when I went off course it worked. Simply created it on their website. Told it to sync with device. Connected the device to my phone app and bosh it was there. Very impressed for such an old device.

Its also bullet proof and has been end over end with me on the bike over rocks etc. My iphone would have been in bits.

S

 

[carlbiker]

Bike computer is far better- way more data, much more accurate in the mountains, and way longer battery life. I just went from a Garmin 510 to a Garmin 1030. Another nice thing- if I crash, I do not want my phone to go crashing down on some rocks. It is well protected in my pack.

Thats interesting, I would have almost been sure that phones collected more data because people are contributing to the pool helping it evolve, how would the garmins compete with that? Like if you check mbr website and hit the trail data they list the alltrails data too which I presume is easy to get using the alltrails app....not sure if you can get that on the Garmin or likewise?