Bafang M620 and EU laws

[E-erm]

Hello,
i've seen an interesting frame but it's compatible only with M620.

I live in europe so the power limit is 250w.
There is solution for use M620 without problems? can be programmed the controller and it's sufficient to respec the EU regulations?

thank you!

 

[jerry]

Programming the controller won't make it compliant to EU regulations (I believe the system need to be certified).

 

[ornias]

While the whole unit needs to be certified, the rating is based on the temperature equilibrium of the actuall electromotor inside it.
No way to get the m620 legal as ebike.

One exception: If you fully hard limit it to 250 at all times (so peak and nominal) you might be able to self-certify it. But you'll have a super shitty motor in return.

 

[markus datgloi]

You may be put off by certificates, but did you, or anybody, ever come across a police officer who knows anything about ebike (emtb) certificates ? Up till now the certificate is just a company owned sticker and documents, thus not an official registrated anywhere within the EU. Its just a 'comply' statement by a company. Are you a company selling and exporting ebikes within the EU ? I came across a local ebike factory that stated: we do not export within the EU, we only comply to local rules, so no EU certificates. The sticker is somewhere hidden on the ebike. I had to put my ebike, YT Decoy, upside down before I could find (but not read) the sticker.

As long as your ebike does not have a throttle (only peddle support) and does not go faster than 25 km/h, everything seems to be fine for the police. Power meter ? I do not believe that any of the now 'legal' ebikes with 70+ Nm will pass. At least the peak power will be higher then 250W. When you sell the ebike just state that it does not comply with official regulations then its a legal sell.

The real problem is when you have an accident and the insurance company starts checking your ebike... then you probably, suddenly, have no insurrance coverage... and guess who will be paying bills.

I drive derestricted emtb's for about 4 years now ... Until now I am lucky but accidents do happen.

 

[ornias]

Up till now it is just a sticker on the ebike, which is sometimes very difficult to find, and its not even an official EU sticker and its not registrated anywhere.

I think it's best not to listen to people that think CE compliance is based on a sticker ;-)
Thats utter folkelore. It's based on certification in accordance with the Machine Directive, the CE sticker is just an addition to that.

Are you a company selling and exporting ebikes within the EU ?

The Machine Directive applies to every machine sold OR "Put into service" within the UI. If you're driving it anywhere in the EU, you need to comply.

I came across a local ebike factory that stated: we do not export within the EU so we only comply to local rules, so no EU certificate.

They just need to consort a decent lawyer, because that is complete and utter nonesense.

As long as your ebike does not go faster than 25 km/h, everything seems to be fine for the police.

Agreed. Most officer won't make a fuss. But make an accident and you will face HEAVY fines or even jailtime depending on jurisdiction.

Power meter ? I do not believe that any of the now legal ebikes with 70+ Nm will pass. At least the peak power will be higher then 250W.

Nope, power metering is done in accordance with earlier explained regulations, it's complicated but CAN be done.

When you sell the ebike just state that it does not comply with official regulations then its a legal sell.

uhmm... No.
Thats called a economic crime.

The real problem is when you have an accident and the insurance company starts checking your ebike... then you probably, suddenly, have no insurrance coverage... and you have to pay everything.

This will also get forwarded to the local DA (or equivalent) office and you might actually face prosecution for driving an illegal uninsured vehicle. One of the possible sanctions for which is actuall jailtime,


TLDR:
Consort a good lawyer in your jurisdiction before doing stupid shit.
And read actuall good documentation, one of which is mine on the m500/m600 firmware github.

 

[markus datgloi]

And some good comments by somebody who specializes in derestricting Bafang ebikes. I hope you had legal advice...

 

[ornias]

And some good comments by somebody who specializes in derestricting Bafang ebikes. I hope you had legal advice...

Your comments where 50% simply wrong and 50% super bad (risky, criminal).
(Not a good comment even iho, considering most of your mistakes where already explained multiple times on this very forum the last 5 months)

 

[jerry]

Your Guide to European Compliance & Safety Standards for E-Bikes: “The Vehicles of the Future” - Certification Experts (certification-experts.com)

 

[Ford Prefect]

I see nothing in these docs (Directive 2006/42/EC, & EN 15194:2017) which poses a problem, here.

Set the assist speed limit & 250 Watt output, document it as such, & the vehicle is now compliant.

Assigning a higher nominal Watt rating to a modified motor, can obviously be problematic. Assigning a lower rating is easy: State a more conservative number. Done.

There is no legal limitation on over-provisioning safety capacity. (That would be idiotically unsafe.) A bike maker can underrate high end equipment, as low as they want.

In fact, there's a long tradition of manufacturers choosing to over-spec & under rate vehicle components, for insurance purposes, on both sides of the pond.

Bosch, Brose, etc, know full well, their motors could be run at higher input than 250 Watts nominal. Heck, the motors (though not to say the gears or cutesier batteries) do fine at twice that wattage for extended periods. If they didn't artificially lower the "nominal" rating, & actually built motors that would burn up if run above 250 Watts for one hour, that would be a problem.

 

[Ford Prefect]

i've seen an interesting frame but it's compatible only with M620.

thank you!

Note that the m620 uses the largest Bottom-Bracket mounting cradle, of any mid-drive ebike motor in production:

Most smaller mid-drive motors could be made to fit an m620 mount, using a spacer block to adapt between the bolt hole patterns.

Getting a Bafang mid-drive on & off is easy, so if for some reason you decided to get a small motor now, & an m620 later (or to get both, swapping in the big one when riding on private land), the only part that's necessarily hard, is making sure that adapter plate/spacer fits, that first time.

Mind you, I'm not really recommending you buy an m620 frame for an m510 motor (or other); nor am I saying 'mounting it nicely on the first try making an adapter, would be a snap'...
I just figured it's worth pointing out that it's possible, without a bunch of re-engineering, or any frame mods.
(Whereas putting a whopper like the m620 on a Bosch or m500 frame would be... significantly more difficult.)

 

[Kyokushin]

In my humble opinion - there is no legal way to use as in the 'bicycle' and full safe way to get this motor in EU.
For the EU best option is M500 at now and probably (from the oem ready engines, not upgrades like bbs01b tsdz2 etc) will be M510 (we will see the possibilities of derestrict when someone will have one to play on).
As the small player you need to have motor with the papers. Its no matter what will be inside, what firmware you will put to it or what physical modification you will do. You need have the 250W rated (by someone bigger) model enclosure with correct stickers.
For the M500 as Ornias found the 250W rating is done by the stator size, but the matter is Bafang done that whole procedures and sign on that.

For the 'bicycle' off public road speeds, even derestricted M500 is enough (~44km/h on throttle).

If someone do not care much about legality - its still a grey area in some countries - then m620 is sweet option if used reasonably.
Maybe after more EU-exits countries will change local regulations, but till we're in eu-collective farm thats not going to happen.

Thats look for nice option for M620. Two batteries

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[Mabman]

"If someone does not care much about legality - its still a grey area in some countries - then m620 is sweet option if used reasonably."

I live in an area of the US that is grey. The M620 is a next level of fun if speed thrills and the over 100nm torque on tap is league leading . You still need to apply force on the pedals but the fact that you can with a decent torque assist when programmed correctly keeps it real. I am able to ride on private land with miles of gated off gravel logging roads and at speed it's pretty much fun. But while on shared use single track I can keep the pace mellow easily depending on sight lines and traffic. Not my first eBike so I know how the other half (99%?) live.

The dual battery option listed above is kind of real if you plan on being in higher assist modes though. I ride with a friend that has a 2021 Giant with the 720wh battery and riding pretty much side by side we use close to the same wh/mi. However if he's not on the ride consumption is much higher as well as the speed. Overall weight plays a factor for sure also but I really only feel it at under 1 mph. At speed it is a very planted ride.

Along with the ability to run a throttle and how draconian the EU laws are and how the other manufacturers are playing the 250w game it is anybodies guess how this is all going to turn out. Especially now that VanMoof and BMW are promoting a high speed/geo fencing system bicycle that currently has no legal rights to public land but seem like they are going to push for it?

VanMoof's dual-motor 31 MPH electric bicycle has over 10,000 reservations, and it's not even legal

Late last year, VanMoof unveiled the VanMoof V as a high-performance electric bicycle that the Dutch brand referred to as...

electrek.co

But if any legislation ever passes the M620 would make a good candidate for the motor with a BA battery system as it can be capable of such an average speed, at least on flat ground.

 

[Mabman]

(Whereas putting a whopper like the m620 on a Bosch or m500 frame would be... significantly more difficult.)

But doable it seems.

Bafang M620 in a Cube frame

My first DIY bike, too heavy, too little range and far too much power. But ideal for pulling the dog trailer ? The M620 is the biggest one of the Bafang family, and with almost 7 kg actually much too heavy But I love the programming options that you have with the Eggrider V2 Display and...

www.emtbforums.com

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Reactions: You

 

[Kyokushin]

[freedom mode on]
I have readed this article.
„Space occupied by cars” what a dumb sentence, jezzz.

City is for people, and people are using cars. Bikes nobody wants because theyre mostly useless except fun and recreation purposes for most people.

Except two small cities in europe the bikes have around 3% traffic usage in cities and around 1% overall… even if everyone have a bike (i do not know a persone who do not owe at least one).
People are using cars, not bikes, not motorcycles or other crap because only cars are useful in daily usage.

sorry for digression - i am going mad when i am reading such shit where someone is trying to force me to use bike in winter, rain, for week shopping, or delivering a child to school. I will not use a bike because i do not want to. I will use car and that croock who want to push his bike on the market and tell me how i should travel in my city may piss off.

[freedom mode off]

Nice photo and i need admit - the rules for ebikes in US are much better. As far i know you can have a theottle. In EU throttle is forbidden.
Its a complete nonsense, the electric engine is a thing what i have just to not paddle and that rule causes the ebikes are useless for someone who might think about using an ebike for daily short travels in summer instead of motorcycle or ice scooter. Same 25kph limit, even dog looking for a bone on street is faster.

 

[Mabman]

[freedom mode on]


City is for people, and people are using cars. Bikes nobody wants because theyre mostly useless except fun and recreation purposes for most people.
I will use car and that croock who want to push his bike on the market and tell me how i should travel in my city may piss off.

[freedom mode off]

Certainly didn't get that same vibe off the article and was more focused on just the concept? That guy is free to wish what he wants but to me the whole idea is going to just go away. That bike isn't going to go 31mph long with only a 700wh battery and it doesn't even appear to have a high enough gear ratio' to be able to pedal effectively at that speed anway. Plus I think they are saying that it is going to be an automatic type transmission which is vapour ware for bicycles at this point anyway. In fact even here in the US a MoPed class bike has to have an automatic transmission along with DOT rims, tires, full lighting kit with horn and most states require a license plate which means insurance.

If you want dumb I think the idea of a separate license is dumb unless they require a full moto license, because I already have one of those......

Nice photo and i need admit - the rules for ebikes in US are much better. As far i know you can have a theottle. In EU throttle is forbidden.
Its a complete nonsense, the electric engine is a thing what i have just to not paddle and that rule causes the ebikes are useless for someone who might think about using an ebike for daily short travels in summer instead of motorcycle or ice scooter. Same 25kph limit, even dog looking for a bone on street is faster.

I do have a throttle and in fact wouldn't own an eBike without one and why I use the Bafang motor. I only use it for starting out and as a walk assist however. If someone chooses an eBike with a throttle and then doesn't pedal at all it bothers me but they are the ones that are missing out on the best part of the trip.

 

[Kyokushin]

For me a throttle is great option when i would like to go on ebike to work (white shirt, better shoes and trousers etc) because i need to look more 'business' than 'casual' so paddling is not an option, its also good for older people and its just giving a choice.
You want to paddle or your battery is depleting - then you can paddle. If you have no wish to paddle at the moment then you're not forced to do it.
ebike with throttle is great because you can paddle or not, its giving a choice and EU law cut that choice. Or for example someone is paddling hard and need a while to take a breath but do not want to slow down - then may use throttle.

Its good to have a choice.

 

[Ford Prefect]

In my humble opinion - there is no legal way to use as in the 'bicycle' and full safe way to get this motor in EU.

Well, you may be right in that some officers may choose a stricter policy than the law itself... but the letter of the law makes no such distinction.

Set the speed & wattage limits, under-rate the motor, label it as such, & you've met the legal requirement.

Some officers may disagree & choose to harass you about it, but the law itself is pretty clear: There's no requirement that you be "big" whatsoever.

Also to clarify: "Big" prebuilt bike maker's "250 Watt" EMTBs are already capable of higher nominal Wattage, & are merely set to a limit lower than they can handle, for legal reasons. There is no restriction against this. Under-rating equipment is routine, for the automotive & motor industries; it has been going on for decades, due to regulatory & insurance incentives.

Reducing a motor's nominal Wattage rating below what it can actually handle, is not just acceptable, it's the norm.

As the small player you need to have motor with the papers. Its no matter what will be inside, what firmware you will put to it or what physical modification you will do. You need have the 250W rated (by someone bigger) model enclosure with correct stickers.

You can choose to believe that if you want, but there's exactly no part of the law which states that.

There is no "someone bigger" required, to meet the legal requirements for reducing the rating of a motor.

There is no legal restriction on who the manufacturer must be, & reducing your rating of a component for safety & liability reasons, is both legal, & widespread industry practice.

The "papers" needed are literally just a stamp you made, with the relevant article of law cited, affixed to the motor.

It isn't complicated, or difficult, & personally I believe the only reason common perception differs, is because some bike makers & a few displeased officers, would prefer that the law be more restrictive than it is, so they spread FUD.

 

[Kyokushin]

@ornias wrote how it works.
Bafang is bigger. Bosh is bigger. If you can design the engine, make documentation, do all procedures and rate that in same way as Bafang did to 250W then go on.

i am not saying thats good its restricted. I am saying you cant get M620, put a sticker to it its 250W and tell its 250W even if you underpower that then its still not 250W rated engine.

same with 2L car engine R4. If you turn off 2 cylinders it will still be 2L engine but will work shitty.
Nobody will care you have unplugged two sparks.

This thing should be started from changing that stupid limits in law, not by interpreting that law for own way. Law will have no mercy on you in case of accident. Dura lex sed lex.

 

[Ford Prefect]

@ornias wrote how it works.

No, they wrote their perception, which is not what the law says.

The text cited by ornias is unambiguous about what is required, with regard to labeling.

There is no "big" or "bigger" with concern to this law.

Furthermore, & I can't believe I have to repeat this again:
All these ebikes are limited by programming, not thermal limits.

The ONLY limit that matters legally is the programming.

That is literally how it's done. The difference between a legal bike & an illegal one, is a setting.

Problematic? Yes.
The actual state of current affairs? Also yes.

Settings & labeling are literally all there is to it. The "big" brands don't do any different, & the laws in question make no distinction between who's "big" enough to set something. - Quod erat demonstrandum

(If you still don't believe me, look up the difference between the top-end Bosch settings for Pedelec 2 versus race modes. Look at the safety standards for motor ratings; they define maximum ratings, not minimums. Ratings can be set as low as desired.)

 

[Kyokushin]

The only what have matter is you have correct paper or not and that is required when you put something on UE into service, what pointed @ornias
I shared my opinion about this. You will do with that whatever you like.

 

[Ford Prefect]

The only what have matter is you have correct paper or not and that is required when you put something on UE into service, what pointed @ornias
I shared my opinion about this. You will do with that whatever you like.

Right. It's literally a motor label, & limiting the speed & Wattage, and that's it. There are no other requirements.

 

[Ford Prefect]

It's a bit odd that people think there's more to it, because the law (as cited by ornias) is quite succinct & not difficult to research. It states quite plainly what's required: a setting & appropriate labeling.

Directive 2006/42/EC, & EN 15194:2017

Look them up if you don't believe it.
Heck, go look up the equipment regs too:

No law prohibits reducing a motor's rating. The rating cannot be higher than thermal limits, for safety reasons, but they can be set as low as desired.

There isn't anything genuinely debatable about this.

I'm not saying EU ebike regulations are well thought out (they're not), but the idea that motors can't be rated below their thermal limits, is pure fantasy with no basis whatsoever in any laws.

 

[BojanZ]

The other day I talked to a police officer here in Slovenia. He said that as long you are not crossing the 25 kmh speed and have no throttle, everything is ok, he will not look into stickers and labels on the motor (for now, but probably new legislation is soon on the way).

But if he gets you going 60 kmh on ebike without pedalling it is the same situation as with the moped (motor which should only go 50 kmh) - the moped is taken away from you, put onto rollers, they meause the power and speed, then it is sent to a workshop and put into its original state of power and speed and then you get an invoice for all this "services" which is usually more then the motor is worth it + penalty for you.

 

[bram.biesiekierski]

Man you EU guys are cucks.

Ain't no law man gonna tell me how powerfull my bike should be.

 

[patdam]

Man you EU guys are cucks.

Ain't no law man gonna tell me how powerfull my bike should be.

Easy to saied for you. in the bush you don't cross a lot of law man no ?

 

[Ford Prefect]

Man you EU guys are cucks.

Ain't no law man gonna tell me how powerfull my bike should be.

LOL! We are always confident when we haven't been burned.

I confess that I am huge, white, & headstrong: More than once I've corrected an officer's behavior & realized later that most people probably wouldn't have tried.

Privilege is a tricky thing...