2.1 motor efficiency: Spin to win

[FlowDough]

A graph posted by Specialized which was verified by independent lab shows how power varies with cadence in some of the most popular motors.

The most revealing part of the graph to me was the efficiency of the Specialized 2.1 motor at higher pedaling cadences. While the other motors start to flatten out and become less efficient above 100 rpm, the 2.1 actually continues to increase in efficiency. Essentially, the faster you spin the pedals on the 2.1 the more efficient the motor is, which increases your range. What did Specialized change to make the motor more efficient at high rpm's? Looking at the graph, I couldn't help but wonder at what rpm's the efficiency starts to dip on the 2.1, or if it ever does. Does the efficiency continue to increase infinitely?

Spinning at 120 rpm might seem somewhat tiring, but if you train for it on a spin bike or fixed gear bike it's not hard to do for extended periods of time in an easy gear.


Projecting the graph trends into infinity, imagine the efficiency of the 2.1 at a cadence of 250 rpm:


Clipless pedals increase your pedaling efficiency by allowing you to apply torque more evenly throughout the pedal cadence, which helps motor efficiency. I've noticed my 2.1 seems more efficient and smoother when I'm focusing on the upstroke while pedaling, without putting much conscious effort into the downstroke. Have any others riders also felt this or experimented with higher cadences on the 2.1 and noticed if it extended the battery range?

 

[salko]

Am I seeing "Data produced by Specialized"?

 

[#lazy]

If you ride it with the motor turned off I’ve noticed better range , try it ?

 

[Gary]

Your graphs are produced by SPECIALIZED. They don't even quantify efficiency. and use a mechanical power values chosen by themselves.
Cynical much? Yes. Masively.

They handily stopped the graph at a cadence where the spesh's 2.1 still looks to be rising in "efficiency" maybe to make naive folk think it will keep rising. (seems to have worked). It won't!


My max peak cadence is over 240rpm
I didn't have to train on a spin bike, fixed wheel or anything weird... I just focused on spinning a little more (Years ago).. I also ride road bikes a lot.
I can reach 10rpm higher on clipless pedals than flats. so yeah. they're more efficient (but only very slightly)They simply allow smoother circles pedalling.
I can reach 220rpm in jeans and flats on pretty much any bike so long as the saddle is the corect height.
and can hold cadences of 140+ for extended duration no bother on my way to work in work clothes.
I'm not trying to brag (it comes naturally) What I'm doing is quantifying what I'm about to say...
The Shimano steps drops off terribly at around 130rpm and at 140rpm feels like it's offering no assistance whatsoever. I suspect the jesus motor. sorry spesh 2.1 will behave similarly at similarly high cadences.

ps. independant lab?

 

[Gary]

Clipless pedals increase your pedaling efficiency by allowing you to apply torque more evenly throughout the pedal cadence, which helps motor efficiency. I've noticed my 2.1 seems more efficient and smoother when I'm focusing on the upstroke while pedaling,

This is also wrong.
clipless allow you to pedal more smoothly.
STOP focusing on pulling up. focus on pedalling smooth circles.
This has actually been proven and pretty much no pro road riders apply torque with the up pull. what they do is not resist the down stroke from the other foot by pedalling smoothly. if you get me.

also.. unless you ride rollers a LOT... it's actually MOAR difficult to ride super high cadences on them than out riding. I have rollers but rarely use them. but ride bikes outdoors shit loads and always have.

 

[aarfeldt]

If you ride it with the motor turned off I’ve noticed better range , try it ?

Depends....do you mean battery range or rider range ?

 

[Gary]

battery range or rider range ?

Both

There's no Emtb that can match a reasonably fit rider's cycling range so unless you carry multiple batteries you'll be left with a lump of useless heavy (drained) battery and non operational motor to drag along by the time you've ridden an actual decent distance/elev... even running in the lowest Eco setting.

For all they tell you they do, emtb riders rarely actually do decent distances or genuinely BIG rides.

 

[wepn]

There's no Emtb that can match a reasonably fit rider's cycling range

If you're a reasonably fit 90 year old there'd be a good selection. I'm not 90 but I am reasonably fit and yes I could match my long range emtb but it'd take a lot of hours and calories and pain.

 

[Gary]

meh...

pointless grumble is pointless

 

[wepn]

Wasn't grumbling I was agreeing and yes pointless.

 

[Gary]

Ah.. So... you enjoy pain?

Handy to know

 

[#lazy]

Both

There's no Emtb that can match a reasonably fit rider's cycling range so unless you carry multiple batteries you'll be left with a lump of useless heavy (drained) battery and non operational motor to drag along by the time you've ridden an actual decent distance/elev... even running in the lowest Eco setting.

For all they tell you they do, emtb riders rarely actually do decent distances or genuinely BIG rides.

Well I did a Fod xc ride with non ebikes and covered about 40 miles in 4hrs ish using mostly eco mode and finished with just under 50% battery and I physically in a much better state than all the others . Do could have easily done another 3hrs !

 

[Gary]

That tells me very little. What height elevation did you accumulate over that distance ?
Goup rides can be faff fests at the best of times.

 

[#lazy]

It was up down up down up down up down for 4hrs with a fit group , they were cooked I wasn’t !

 

[Gary]

That still tells us nothing.

40 miles XC from my door can be as little as 800ft of climbing and is easily doable at pace in trail mode on an Eeb.
Whereas half an hours drive away at the Golfie or Thornielee (Tweed Valley) 40 miles can be 12000ft. You're not doing that on any Eeb with one battery unless you lower Eco to pretty much be pointless.

You do realise plenty folk do hundreds of miles and 10s of thousands of feet if climbing in a day on normal mtbs?

 

[FlowDough]

There's no Emtb that can match a reasonably fit rider's cycling range so unless you carry multiple batteries.

If you are riding an area with downhill trails you can just keep an extra battery in the car. With an extra I can do more laps than a fit rider but in much quicker time.

They handily stopped the graph at a cadence where the spesh's 2.1 still looks to be rising in "efficiency" maybe to make naive folk think it will keep rising. (seems to have worked). It won't!

Darn, I guess I'll stop the 250 rpm cadence training I started at the gym last night.

 

[#lazy]

I’m pretty sure I could lower my eco and be quicker than most normal bikes on any 4hr ride and still have something left , battery and legs ! Not many Mtber’s do 100’s of miles and climb 20000 plus ft rides so not sure what planet your on gary !

 

[Gary]

If you are riding an area with downhill trails you can just keep an extra battery in the car. With an extra I can do more laps than a fit rider but in much quicker time.

depends what "downhill trails" I suppose... I doubt you'd even manage 2 laps on one battery at ft bill.
Inners you can get 3 full runs top to bottom (bottom to top). but because of this I prefer to section and mix it up riding different trails if riding the Eeb so rarely ride the first or last 30secs of track as those happen to need the steepest climbs to winch yourself back up.

 

[Gary]

I’m pretty sure I could lower my eco and be quicker than most normal bikes on any 4hr ride and still have something left , battery and legs ! Not many Mtber’s do 100’s of miles and climb 20000 plus ft rides so not sure what planet your on gary !

most normal mountain bikes aren't ridden by particuarly fit riders either. (me included these days)

Most 4hr group rides rarely have much more than 2.5hrs of actual riding time.
My point is that's hardly a BIG ride, is it?

Planet obvious dude

 

[#lazy]

Wot are we arguing about again ??

 

[FlowDough]

They handily stopped the graph at a cadence where the spesh's 2.1 still looks to be rising in "efficiency" maybe to make naive folk think it will keep rising. (seems to have worked). It won't!

Do you actually know this as fact? If so do you know at what rpm it drops off and how drastically? I haven't seen any other studies that provide this data, have you?

 

[wepn]

Ah.. So... you enjoy pain?

Handy to know

Self flagellation don't we all ? ō/*ò

 

[Gary]

Do you actually know this as fact? If so do you know at what rpm it drops off and how drastically? I haven't seen any other studies that provide this data, have you?

Yes it's a fact.
I've no idea what rpm it drops off at but it obviously will.
Knowing Specialized's marketing tact probably just off the "graph of truth"

 

[FlowDough]

Yes it's a fact.
I've no idea what rpm it drops off at but it obviously will.
Knowing Specialized's marketing tact probably just off the "graph of truth"

I know it drops off at some point and I was just being sarcastic when I suggested it went to infinity. Aside from your lack of a sarcasm detector, it also sounds like you are now changing your oringinal claim that it drops at the end of the graph:

They handily stopped the graph at a cadence where the spesh's 2.1 still looks to be rising in "efficiency"

I understand that you are a cynical person but you shouldn't be making up lies about data and presenting it as fact to everybody just because you don't trust Specialized.

I noticed it says Elite World Champion under your name, did you win this race and if not how did you get that title?

 

[Gary]

sounds like you are now changing your oringinal claim that it drops at the end of the graph

what claim?

I understand that you are a cynical person but you shouldn't be making up lies about data and presenting it as fact to everybody just because you don't trust Specialized

WTF dude?

I couldn't care less either way about what Jesus Specialized claimed or didn't.

The Holy graph on it's own* is hugely misleading whatever way you look at it...

*ie without motor output and rider power data (speed/load would be nice too)

 

[Gary]

Oh... and Ebike racing is a complete farce

 

[Softsand]

And although the Yamaha looks bad, that is the old motor that was replaced in 2020 models that supports significantly higher cadences.

New Yamaha 2020 ebike motors – PW-X2 and our first ride impressions | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine