11speed vs 12speed

[lucacocomazzi]

Hello

My rear cassette is nearly coming to an end.

My dilemma is, shall I carry on with 11 speed set up, or is it worth upgrading to 12 speed?

I know I will have to also change the shifter/derailleur/chain.

I just wanted to hear some opinions from you guys that have tried both.

Cheers

 

[MattyB]

Stick with 11 speed - any advantages of 12 speed on an ebike are minimal, and they are likely to wear faster and be more pernickety on setup.

 

[MinusPrevious]

The 12 speed gives you a smaller rear cog, correct? More top end? Ive been interested in increasing my front 36T ring to a 38T for more top end. That would certainly be easier than a full 12 speed change over?

 

[lucacocomazzi]

The 12 Speed will give you an extra cog on the top end of the cassette, allowing you to run a large front chainring if you wish.

 

[Gary]

11 speed is waaaaaaay better VFM (10speed even more so)

I honestly can't see how so many* Emtb riders need the same range as a normal mtb. So just increase your chainring size.
a 36T chainring and 11-40 suits me fine everywhere. 36x40 will get me up anything I'd ever want to (except with the motor switched OFF)
and 36x11 get's you to 30mph+ spinning at 110rpm


*Obvs does not apply to riders with medical conditions/disabilities etc.

 

[The Flying Dutchman]

Stick with the 11 speed. I went from 12 to 11 and was very happy with the result. The 11sp seems less finicky to setup and maintain and has a shorter derailer that's less prone to damage. They're also cheaper and lighter.

If you're feeling like you need a little more 'nana' in the nana gear, consider a smaller front chainring.

 

[Rusty]

I have 12sp on my Scott & 11sp on my Levo. Don't really miss the big ring of the 12sp and the small on both is 11 tooth.
Personally I think 10sp is probably a better option for eMTB as you have a greater choice of clusters (more steel) and the chain is slightly beefier.

 

[Jeff McD]

I went from stock sram 10-42 cassette to Shimano 11-46 and remained 11 speed. Very happy with the results. Don't think I need the 50 tooth of the Eagle cassette on my Levo. Very cheap upgrade in my opinion and perfect for my extremely steep trails which I ride uphill as well as down. Your experience in a differ.

 

[Rusty]

I went from stock sram 10-42 cassette to Shimano 11-46 and remained 11 speed. Very happy with the results. Don't think I need the 50 tooth of the Eagle cassette on my Levo. Very cheap upgrade in my opinion and perfect for my extremely steep trails which I ride uphill as well as down. Your experience in a differ.

Going to go to a 11-46 on my Levo when it comes time for replacement - and go up 2 on the front.

 

[lucacocomazzi]

Thanks guys, I will stick to 11 speed, it will save me some money.

 

[outerlimits]

11 speed is waaaaaaay better VFM (10speed even more so)

I honestly can't see how so many* Emtb riders need the same range as a normal mtb. So just increase your chainring size.
a 36T chainring and 11-40 suits me fine everywhere. 36x40 will get me up anything I'd ever want to (except with the motor switched OFF)
and 36x11 get's you to 30mph+ spinning at 110rpm


*Obvs does not apply to riders with medical conditions/disabilities etc.

I was thinking of swapping from 11 speed to 10 speed. But I’d have to run a 32t front and 11-42 rear as I have a debilitating medical condition ?‍
Only upside would be that I’d save some coin on chains and cassettes.

 

[Gary]

That's not the only upside. but fair enough.

 

[outerlimits]

That's not the only upside. but fair enough.

Sign me up then ? but don’t tell me anymore, I like surprises.

 

[DrStupid]

11 speed is waaaaaaay better VFM (10speed even more so)

I honestly can't see how so many* Emtb riders need the same range as a normal mtb. So just increase your chainring size.
a 36T chainring and 11-40 suits me fine everywhere. 36x40 will get me up anything I'd ever want to (except with the motor switched OFF)
and 36x11 get's you to 30mph+ spinning at 110rpm


*Obvs does not apply to riders with medical conditions/disabilities etc.

I want to try a 10 speed! It seems I always shift in sets of two with the eagle. I like the range but dont need the resolution.

But unlike Gary, I Like the creepy crawly gears, and seldom peddle beyond the 20mph speed assist limit.

I see sunrace and other cheap cassettes in 10 speeds 11-46 and even 11-50 range, and I'm thinking about trying one.

I know poeple have used shimano shifters on their eagle derailleurs without trouble, and I want to try it one step further. I'm gonna buy a shimano 10 speed zee shifter, a cheap 10 speed cassette 11-50, and a kmc x10 chain... put it all on my trance with the eagle derailleur and see what happens. If it doesn't work, I'm out $60 .

I'm I a complete bone head for even thinking about this?

 

[Gary]

If you honestly don't pedal past 20mph simply use a smaller chainring with an 11-42 10 speed cassette and you'll have those low gears you like

 

[khorn]

Just a general warning, there is a reason why the Sunrace cassettes are so cheap - They shift so badly and are made of butter steel - I’m talking out of bad experience. If you want a cheap cassette go for the Shimano SLX, there you will get the good shifting without paying a million bucks.

Karsten

 

[DrStupid]

Just a general warning, there is a reason why the Sunrace cassettes are so cheap - They shift so badly and are made of butter steel - I’m talking out of bad experience. If you want a cheap cassette go for the Shimano SLX, there you will get the good shifting without paying a million bucks.

Karsten

I hear this but... I've got a sunrace on my KHS with XT derailleur, shifter, and kmc x11 chain... and it shifts totally kickass even under load. I see no wear on anything. On the other hand my wifes speedfox with slx has broken teeth all over the 46. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

 

[DrStupid]

If you honestly don't pedal past 20mph simply use a smaller chainring with an 11-42 10 speed cassette and you'll have those low gears you like

Thanks gary, I mean I might occasionally go fast but using gravity. In these trails I ride... 25mph is smoken fast! Almost stupid fast for a 50 year old.

When I ride with wife it's like bike packing and we go slow.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I want to try a 10 speed! It seems I always shift in sets of two with the eagle. I like the range but dont need the resolution.

I've got a 10 speed and I also very often shift in sets of two!

If an 8 or 9 speed cassette exists with the usual cog spacing but jumps to a 40T at the last cog I might even give that a go. It will certainly allow for a fatter-stronger chain.

I guess I can always shift electronically (power modes) in between wider spaced cogs if I needed some finer resolution. PLUS there's considerable weight savings to be had.

Just toying with the crazy idea...

 

[DrStupid]

I've got a 10 speed and I also very often shift in sets of two!

If an 8 or 9 speed cassette exists with the usual cog spacing but jumps to a 40T at the last cog I might even give that a go. It will certainly allow for a fatter-stronger chain.

I guess I can always shift electronically (power modes) in between wider spaced cogs if I needed some finer resolution. PLUS there's considerable weight savings to be had.

Just toying with the crazy idea...

Yes! I'm eventually gonna start a thread (unless somebody beats me to it) in the questions and answers forum, to investigate a 9 vs 10 speed rig, and get opinions for ratios and shifters. I like the range I get from my 11 speed 11-46 cassettes, and have found this range in a 9 speed cassette, but dont know if this is feasible in the real world.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Yes! I'm eventually gonna start a thread (unless somebody beats me to it) in the questions and answers forum, to investigate a 9 vs 10 speed rig, and get opinions for ratios and shifters. I like the range I get from my 11 speed 11-46 cassettes, and have found this range in a 9 speed cassette, but dont know if this is feasible in the real world.

It would also be interesting to include a weight comparison between an 11-36T 9-speed cassette and our 11-42T current crop of 10, 11, or 12-speed cassettes? I’m real curious.

I’m not sure if 9 speed cassettes ever had cogs larger than 36T. Or if it would be possible to modify the big gear to a 42T...

 

[Gary]

I've said this before many times but personally I'd prefer if e bike cassettes were designed with close ratio jumps at the high (11T) end of the cassette and larger jumps towards the low (46T) end.
ie. 11-12-13-14-15-17-20-24-30-37-46 (11 speed)
or 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-23-28-34-40 (10speed)
This would mean I'd have far more useful ratios within the same range. And I'd also get greater life out of the smaller sprockets. seeing as I spend waaay longer in the higher gears (smaller sprockets) on an Ebike than I ever do on a regular mtb

Ebike specific 9 speed cassettes have pretty awful ratio jumps IMO.
eg. 11-13-15-18-22-28-34-42-50

I'm currently riding 11-40 SLX cassettes with a 36T ring and not missing the 46T sprocket at all nevermind a 50T

@GrandPaBrogan 11-42 is available in shimano Deore 10 speed. sounds like that might suit your needs. The 10 speed deore/Zee/Saint shifters are decent quality and feel good in use as are deore/zee/saint 10 spd mechs. Way better quality than a certain competitors Ebike specific 9 speed shifter and mech I've used.

 

[DrStupid]

Thanks Gary.

Do you know if, as I have read in other forums, we can simply use our existing 11 and 12 speed mechs, with the 10 speed zee shifters, cassettes, and chains? If so, this would put the cost at less than $100 to give it a try.
Myself, I'm hoping to make the shifting a little more robust, and of course space the gears a little further apart, in particular the eagle setup on my Trance. The durability on the eagle actually seems reasonable where chain and cassette is the issue. Or is this more newby nonsense?

 

[knut7]

10 speed will wear out much faster than a 9 speed. But I guess 8 speed is the way to go for maximum durability. Sunrace have cheap 8 and 9s 11-40t cassettes. SunRace | CSM990 But You're giving up the the clutch derailleur, and that's not worth giving up IMO. The 10s Deore M6000 is a pretty good groupset, I currently run it on one of my bikes, and it's perfectly fine for trail riding.

 

[Gary]

Thanks Gary.

Do you know if, as I have read in other forums, we can simply use our existing 11 and 12 speed mechs, with the 10 speed zee shifters, cassettes, and chains? If so, this would put the cost at less than $100 to give it a try.

No you can't use an 11 or 12 speed mech with a 10 speed shifter (unless you modify the shifter. The cable pull ratios are different.

Myself, I'm hoping to make the shifting a little more robust, and of course space the gears a little further apart, in particular the eagle setup on my Trance. The durability on the eagle actually seems reasonable where chain and cassette is the issue. Or is this more newby nonsense?

I don't know what you mean about robust shifting.
if you mean more robust components Zee and Saint were designed to be more robust (questionable how much tho. as they share parts from SLX and XT in their build)

I don't really know why you want larger jumps but reducing gearing quantity from 12 to 10 but retaining the same range will obviously grant your wish

 

[Gary]

10 speed will wear out much faster than a 9 speed. But I guess 8 speed is the way to go for maximum durability. Sunrace have cheap 8 and 9s 11-40t cassettes. SunRace | CSM990 But You're giving up the the clutch derailleur, and that's not worth giving up IMO. The 10s Deore M6000 is a pretty good groupset, I currently run it on one of my bikes, and it's perfectly fine for trail riding.

9 speed won't wear out much faster than 10 at all.
infact as it has the extra gear cassette wear is spread out more (if you actually shift and use the full range of gearing.
Sunrace cassettes are a false economy. Basically they're shit in shifting performance and durability in comparison to a cheap deore cassette.

I agree about not giving up the clutch though. Not really for chain retention but to stop chainsuck. Ebikes without a clutch mech are more prone to this and if it does happen the motor spins the chain right up into the chainstay (often jamming) and can't simply be backpedalled free.
NEVER switch your clutch off on an Ebike

 

[knut7]

Hmm, I seem to remember the 9 speed chains were more durable. Sunrace isn't the shit, but it's an 8s/9s 11-40t cassette.

 

[Jirkovo]

I drive the E-13 9-46 1x11 cartridge in front of 36z and it's great. Larger range than an eagle, I have 511%

 

[DrStupid]

No you can't use an 11 or 12 speed mech with a 10 speed shifter (unless you modify the shifter. The cable pull ratios are different.


I don't know what you mean about robust shifting.
if you mean more robust components Zee and Saint were designed to be more robust (questionable how much tho. as they share parts from SLX and XT in their build)

I don't really know why you want larger jumps but reducing gearing quantity from 12 to 10 but retaining the same range will obviously grant your wish

Thanks.
More robust = less finicky. My 12 speed eagle is pretty hard to keep shifting nicely.

The larger jumps between ratios makes since to me, only because it seems like I go through the gears constantly shifting in steps of two or three gears. Click, click click. Peddle for a spell. Click, click, click.

For now, I think it's best for me to keep what I've got, and wear it out completely. Maybe by the time I've destroyed a few more derailleurs, and actually wore out a cassette or two, I will understand better what I like.

 

[Gary]

Thanks.
More robust = less finicky. My 12 speed eagle is pretty hard to keep shifting nicely.

robustness has nothing to do with your complaint of finicky adjustment.
12 speed isn't difficult to set up if you understand what you're doing. Clean cable routing and good condition cables is more important though. As is the condition of the mech itself and alignment of th frames Hanger.
B tension has become far more important with the introduction of larger sprockets (not greater number of gears)

The larger jumps between ratios makes since to me, only because it seems like I go through the gears constantly shifting in steps of two or three gears. Click, click click. Peddle for a spell. Click, click, click.

you could always teach yourself to spin faster. This will improve your comfortable pedalling cadence range and mean you'll no longer need to constantly be trying to find the optimum gear. (it's still nicer to be in the optimum gear in certain situations eg. where traction is required, or sprinting and this is when having gear jumps closer will actually make more sense.
It's not actually difficult to train your body to become comfortable at higher cadences. It just takes practice. My max peak cadence is 240+ rpm. not that I'm suggesting you need to reach that speed but it does mean I'll happily spin for ages above 110 without feeling it's even particularly fast and will often sprint up above 180 on a trail. But will still happily grind stood up uphill at very low cadences.

For now, I think it's best for me to keep what I've got, and wear it out completely. Maybe by the time I've destroyed a few more derailleurs, and actually wore out a cassette or two, I will understand better what I like.

Improving the rider before worrying about the componentry makes a lot of sense to me. Especially if you're already running mid level or above kit (as most Emtbs come spec'd).
There's no reason you should be destroying mid level and above derrailleurs.

But. Yeah. Ultimately its up to you to do whatever you see fit.