Upgrade to Di2 shifting

[Tamas]

That was the one thing where Specialized with the Mission Control App, had a major advantage over Shimano. The Mission Control App can do so much tweaking you can go round in circles

Yeah, I was thinking similarly but then I realized that I want to ride my bike instead of tweaking all the time. For me, Shimano gives a perfect balance and even with its 'limited' options I tweak it less than I thought I will. I just set Trail to 'middle' a year ago and ride...

 

[MattyB]

...The main reason for buying the PCE1 linkage is that the % power settings in all the modes can be tweaked... even Eco! Shame you can't change them on the fly though

That was the one thing where Specialized with the Mission Control App, had a major advantage over Shimano. The Mission Control App can do so much tweaking you can go round in circles

I don’t get Shimano strategy in this area at all. If you are going to allow people to adjust assistance, why not allow them to do it in all modes? What they have is the worst of all worlds - a complicated, high cost solution that can only be used at home in a subset of modes. It’s frustrating for those who want full control over their power train.

I love the general characteristics of the Shimano system, but suspect they will have to address this more elegantly in future as full adjustability via Bluetooth becomes the norm. If the next gen Bosch system has it that’s rumoured to be out late next year then Shimano will be the only major manufacturer not offering his functionality.

 

[Tamas]

What they have is the worst of all worlds - a complicated, high cost solution that can only be used at home. It’s frustrating for those who want full control over their power train.
If the next gen Bosch system has it that’s rumoured to be out late next year then Shimano will be the only major manufacturer not offering his functionality.

That's funny... In my opinion, ~80% of the users never tweaked the levels or just set once and forget. I think it's less of an issue than you make it to be. Yes, there are people who want to set the assist level to 43,5% but for the vast majority, it's acceptable as it is and I certainly wouldn't call it "worst of all worlds".
We don't know what Bosch will bring out but as of now they don't have an app at all and you have to take it to a shop with everything. That's a serious PITA for me, I much prefer Shimano's current system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I know even the Levo firmware updates are done by the shop, not the user. No, thanks...

 

[R120]

The Shimano system is as adjustable via the app, as it is via the pc connection, in terms of power levels and modes, as well as configuring the system.

Although the app isn't that complex, you can be out on a ride, connect tot he bike, change the settings, then be back on your way in a few minutes.

It's also the only system I believe that is fully updatable by the user/owner from home - when there's an update available you just download it via the app, connect to he bike, then do the update.

The issue is that it only allows you to toggle between predefined levels of assist within trail and boost, and not at all with eco. I say problem but its not really something that I have found to be annoying, though I am intrigued to see what playing with the levels more would do to the motor if the option became available.

Hopefully they will have a more in depth version out soon.

 

[Nifty 56]

The freeMax software allows you to adjust ALL the power modes by %, including Eco. You can be as precise as you want but just 1% changes are a waste of time. Being able to adjust it every 10% would be enough. The full eMax let's you do even more!

Updated 03.10.19... Most Shimano users will know this but Shimano have set Eco at 60% (High) as default. The latest(4.7.0 ) firmware update allows for Eco to be adjusted High, Medium & Low. This is great but Low in Eco is hard going on the road let alone trail!

When I tried a Levo with the Mission Control App, I adjusted it in 10% increments. This was mainly trying to conserve battery power so I could ride further.

My SM-PCE1 linkage arrives this week. But I am having to send my display (SCE8000) back to CRC as it is totally dead as verified by a Shimano dealer. So I won't be able to play with the settings until after Xmas. I am also having a shoulder operation on the 28th so won't be riding for a month

 

[Tamas]

The freeMax software allows you to adjust ALL the power modes by %, including Eco. You can be as precise as you want but just 1% changes are a waste of time. Being able to adjust it every 10% would be enough. It will be interesting to see what Shimano set the % for Eco as default. It feels like 30% to me but for a longer ride, 15% would be better, maybe less.
And the full eMax let's you do even more

When I tried a Levo with the Mission Control App, I adjusted it in 10% increments. This was mainly trying to conserve battery power so I could ride further.

My SM-PCE1 linkage arrives this week. But I am having to send my display (SCE8000) back to CRC as it is totally dead as verified by a Shimano dealer. So I won't be able to play with the settings until after Xmas. I am also having a shoulder operation on the 28th so won't be riding for a month

My friend's bike shop has an SM-PCE1 I'll take it for a weekend to check out the freeMax.
I'm planning to upgrade to XT Di2 if I run into a good deal and if I can change the shifting from mechanical to Di2 by myself. Otherwise, it would be a 400km round trip to the Shimano guy who has the 'admin right' to do it and it doesn't worth that much for me.

 

[Nifty 56]

All you need is the Di2 rear mech, the RH gear switch unit and 2 wires to connect the rear mech to the motor and the RH gear switch to the display. You have to change the Shimano gear setting from manual to electronic as well in the system. Then it should all work.

I'm just using the software to change the power settings. I'm leaving the Di2 for now.

The gear shifting has always been a bit stiff on my Vitus E-Sommet. This is due to the rear mech cable taking 2 really tight 180 degree turns over the motor and into the rear triangle.

I removed the motor and re-routed the cable and made it a lot better. It does slow my gear shifting which is good in some ways as it saves me mashing the gears when 'giving it some' in 'Boost' mode. Maybe the Di2 will cause more problems so might leave it for now. Although, I did have a test ride on a Focus Jam2 with Di2 last year with no problems. But the thought of having a small off and wrecking the Di2 mech slows my riding

I’m going to remove the motor again and totally reroute the original cable making it as straight as I can before I go Di2.

 

[Tamas]

Yeah, I checked the 'Shimano E8000 DM' it's pretty straightforward with everything regarding Di2 install.
I don't have any problems with shifting on the Meta Power but when the season is over and cannot ride then the 'upgrade bug' kicks in. I have a GX Eagle rear mech on the bike and I don't like how low it hangs and it sticks out sideways more than the Shimano, it's more exposed. I have a set of mechanical XT to install but I might change my mind and go with Di2. Yes, the rear mech is ~200€ and that makes me think if it's a good idea...

 

[Nifty 56]

I re-routed the standard XT rear mech cable last week and it is 10 times better now so not bothering with Di2.

Also, my SC-8000 display/control unit went faulty on my last ride and I had no motor power so had to pedal back to my car with no assistance. I could still change gear with the cable but not too sure if the gear change would work with the system failure if I'd had the electronic Di2 fitted.

 

[E-Glen]

Right, I have finally managed to get the Di2 shifting working on my Vitus.

Hey Iain, glad to hear you got this working, and sad to hear about your health.
Question for ya... Does the shifting work with the bike turned off?

 

[E-Glen]

Thanks Iain for the guide!
For anyone interested, you want to use a 200mm and a 700mm di2 wire.

 

[Nifty 56]

Hey Iain, glad to hear you got this working, and sad to hear about your health.
Question for ya... Does the shifting work with the bike turned off?

So you've fitted Di2? Does the shifting work when bike off?

 

[mark.ai]

So you've fitted Di2? Does the shifting work when bike off?

If the display is off and the bike has no power then the Di2 shifting won't work either.

I guess you could probably install Di2 independently of the STEPS setup on the bike if you needed it to keep working when STEPS had no power - but you'd need a separate battery and display etc just for Di2 (just like fitting it on a non-powered MTB).

 

[Nifty 56]

If the display is off and the bike has no power then the Di2 shifting won't work either.

I guess you could probably install Di2 independently of the STEPS setup on the bike if you needed it to keep working when STEPS had no power - but you'd need a separate battery and display etc just for Di2 (just like fitting it on a non-powered MTB).

Yep... I knew it wouldn't work but thanks for confirming it!

 

[E-Glen]

So you've fitted Di2? Does the shifting work when bike off?

As long as the display is on, the shifting works.
So yes, it does work in mode "off"

 

[Nifty 56]

As long as the display is on, the shifting works.
So yes, it does work in mode "off"

I meant with the battery power off not the function 'Off'. No battery power means no power to change gear which means no fun at all

 

[Vanderlay]

Hi all. Many thanks for this thread, it has answered my e-prayers! I wanted to alert others who are thinking of switching to a Di2 mech from mechanical that although I didn't have a PCE-1 or PCE-2, just the old BCR-2, the e-Max software still connected without problems to my Steps 8000 powered Canyon. I temporarily removed the Di2 junction box A from my road bike, connected that to the BCR-2 and then used a spare Di2 wire to connect the junction box to the head unit on the bike. A PC running Windows 10 did the job and it worked like a dream. And there I was thinking that I was facing weeks off the bike to return it to Canyon. Max credit to e-Max for making this possible for free!

 

[Jesper.DK]

Hi all. Many thanks for this thread, it has answered my e-prayers! I wanted to alert others who are thinking of switching to a Di2 mech from mechanical that although I didn't have a PCE-1 or PCE-2, just the old BCR-2, the e-Max software still connected without problems to my Steps 8000 powered Canyon. I temporarily removed the Di2 junction box A from my road bike, connected that to the BCR-2 and then used a spare Di2 wire to connect the junction box to the head unit on the bike. A PC running Windows 10 did the job and it worked like a dream. And there I was thinking that I was facing weeks off the bike to return it to Canyon. Max credit to e-Max for making this possible for free!

Was wondering if it would be possible to use the BCR2, as I'd hate to have to throw another 160EUR on top of my upgrade in progress. I have XTR Di2 (normal not STEPS) on my other bike, so I should be able to borrow the display from there and get PC connection, right???

PS. Some ought to send an angry mail to Shimano. They list Di2 as an upgrade path on the www and then you have to go through all this to flip a bit! Seriously Shimano? You can do better!

 

[Vanderlay]

Was wondering if it would be possible to use the BCR2, as I'd hate to have to throw another 160EUR on top of my upgrade in progress. I have XTR Di2 (normal not STEPS) on my other bike, so I should be able to borrow the display from there and get PC connection, right???

PS. Some ought to send an angry mail to Shimano. They list Di2 as an upgrade path on the www and then you have to go through all this to flip a bit! Seriously Shimano? You can do better!

Yes, just use whatever you normally plug the BCR into on your MTB as the connection between the BCR and the head unit via another E-TUBE wire

 

[Jesper.DK]

So, I wrote a bitchy email (facebook msg actaully) last night, and here is their reply:

=============
Hi Jesper,
Thank you for reaching out to us!

As a consumer or dealer it's not possible to change the settings due to regulations and law. Any electronic component should fulfil EMC testing which is done on a complete bike.

This means the manufacturer of your bike has done this test for your bike with mechanical shifting. When assembling a Di2 rear derailleur on the bike the manufacturer can not state the bike is according the EMC regulations.

Your local dealer can contact the manufacturer and ask if they allow the change to Di2.

Kind regards,
Team Shimano

 

[Tamas]

So, I wrote a bitchy email (facebook msg actaully) last night, and here is their reply:

=============
Hi Jesper,
Thank you for reaching out to us!

As a consumer or dealer it's not possible to change the settings due to regulations and law. Any electronic component should fulfil EMC testing which is done on a complete bike.

This means the manufacturer of your bike has done this test for your bike with mechanical shifting. When assembling a Di2 rear derailleur on the bike the manufacturer can not state the bike is according the EMC regulations.

Your local dealer can contact the manufacturer and ask if they allow the change to Di2.

Kind regards,
Team Shimano

It makes sense from their side but still sucks for us... luckily, there is a way to do it. ?

 

[Jesper.DK]

It makes sense from their side but still sucks for us... luckily, there is a way to do it. ?

Both yes and no. My bike is a Focus Jam2, and there are variants of that with Di2 from Focus, so that frame must be EMC/EMI approved with electric shifting...

 

[Tamas]

Both yes and no. My bike is a Focus Jam2, and there are variants of that with Di2 from Focus, so that frame must be EMC/EMI approved with electric shifting...

... and that's why they are offering the option:
"Your local dealer can contact the manufacturer and ask if they allow the change to Di2."

In case of a Focus Jam2 the answer should be yes...

 

[betti154]

Hi,

I installed XT Di2 shifting on my Focus Sam2, and and ST Unlocker already which allowed me to change the system to 'electronic shifting'. Simple and easy thanks to the information on this post.

Whilst shifting down (to bigger cogs) is super crisp, I do find that shifting up gears (to smaller cogs) can be quick violent in boost mode in particular.

I also seemed to have a faulty right side XT di2 shifter was also getting stuck mechanically, screwing up the shift timing. I've replaced this however and no further problems. Just wondered if anyone else has had the shift paddles sticking in and not returning to rest position promptly? do they need lubrication?

What's others experience with Di2?

 

[Pat2203]

Right, I have finally managed to get the Di2 shifting working on my Vitus. It turns out that the method of shifting is set by the manufacturers when they setup and flash the bike. According to Madison (Shimano importer in U.K.) the type of derailleur is set to either mechanical or electronic and only they can change it. After a few days of trying to get the Shimano E-TUBE app to change this it just wouldn’t work and I was giving up. Then I found a software solution for the Shimano E8000 system. eMax - english.

To cut a long story short, there is 2 versions of the software. Freemax that allows you alter the assist levels in eco, trail and boost. It also allows you to change the wheel circumference if required, but I won’t go into that here. The other software is called Emax, and whilst it is a full blown tuning suite, it required a paid license key to alter the motor cutoff levels. But you can use this version for free and change the derailleur type from mechanical to electronic. It also allows you to change the chainring size and the cassette size.

So armed with my well used PCE1 and the Emax free software I proceeded to change the derailleur type on my trust bike. Well at least I tried but without success. I popped a quick email to the email address on their website thinking it would all be for naught, closed the computer down and trudged out to the office. To my surprise I had a reply before I got home asking for more information and if I could send the log files created by the program. I flicked those over this morning and had a reply and solution within 2 hours. The chap on the other end of the emails is called Markus and every reply is full of detail, pictures and very comprehensive guides. It turns out that the reason he wrote the software is because he had exactly the same problem as me, but has expanded what his program can do.

If anybody is looking to upgrade their Steps E8000 from mechanical to Di2 shifting, this is what you need. I can not recommend Markus and the Emax software highly enough. Knowing from the outset that I only needed the free version of the software, Markus went above and beyond to get it working for me. It really is customer service at its very best. Add to this his excellent grasp of English is WAY better than my German, I find it remarkable.

Hi buddy could you let me know which hardware and cables you used and how you wired them up as I’m hoping to do the same thing as you cheers Daz

P.s. maybe a diagram and some photos would help me greatly

 

[RickBullotta]

The Shimano system is as adjustable via the app, as it is via the pc connection, in terms of power levels and modes, as well as configuring the system.

Although the app isn't that complex, you can be out on a ride, connect tot he bike, change the settings, then be back on your way in a few minutes.

It's also the only system I believe that is fully updatable by the user/owner from home - when there's an update available you just download it via the app, connect to he bike, then do the update.

The issue is that it only allows you to toggle between predefined levels of assist within trail and boost, and not at all with eco. I say problem but its not really something that I have found to be annoying, though I am intrigued to see what playing with the levels more would do to the motor if the option became available.

Hopefully they will have a more in depth version out soon.

I find the Shimano system the complete opposite. The fact that I need to go to a dealer to change the wheel diameter/circumference is ABSURD. I have 29" and 27.5" wheelsets, and I swap tires for conditions. Easy thing to add to the app, but Shimano doesn't really seem to give a sh*t about the consumer.

 

[Dan63]

I find the Shimano system the complete opposite. The fact that I need to go to a dealer to change the wheel diameter/circumference is ABSURD. I have 29" and 27.5" wheelsets, and I swap tires for conditions. Easy thing to add to the app, but Shimano doesn't really seem to give a sh*t about the consumer.

It's no absurd. If Shimano allowed wheel circumference changes then the speed limiter can be easily altered. I would suggest this is the reason for it being this way.

 

[RickBullotta]

It's no absurd. If Shimano allowed wheel circumference changes then the speed limiter can be easily altered. I would suggest this is the reason for it being this way.

It’s totally absurd to have to schedule, travel to a dealer, and pay a dealer when I want to change wheels or tires. Very anti consumer.

Those who want to cheat or derestrict their bikes have lots of other (and better) options than wheel circumference.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

 

[alexhalliow]

I'm going to buy an SM-PCE1 linkage. I have been chatting to Markus and I have also asked him the full list of components I need to convert my bike.

I’ve worked out I need the RH gear switch, the Di2 rear derailleur and a couple of the Shimano connecting wires (1 long, 1 short). Is that it?

Hello, Do you have the correct lengths of wire needed for the mech and the shifter to the E7000 computer? Or if you have a full parts list. Upgrading a Decoy...

 

[Nifty 56]

Hello, Do you have the correct lengths of wire needed for the mech and the shifter to the E7000 computer? Or if you have a full parts list. Upgrading a Decoy...

I sold the E-Sommet about just over a year ago & I never put Di2 on it and don't know the lengths needed. They will probably be different on a Decoy anyway. You'll just have to measure the approx lengths and just add a bit more to be safe. Better the cable is a bit too long rather than too short.