Shimano trail mode vs Bosch emtb?

[ggx]

Never had the opportunity to test any Shimano motor. Wondering how does it compares? Plus/minus?

 

[JoeBlow]

I prefer the Bosch but EMTB mode is not really the same as Trail mode as far as I can tell. Trail is more like Tour on the Bosch. EMTB is a sort of power on demand mode similar to "automatic". I like EMTB mode because it doesn't seem to give you that surprise, unwanted sudden boost that you can get with Turbo. I find myself using EMTB most of the time these days.

Al

 

[Zimmerframe]

I prefer the Bosch but EMTB mode is not really the same as Trail mode as far as I can tell. Trail is more like Tour on the Bosch.

I'd have to be difficult and disagree.

Eco (Shimano) is pretty much like Eco (Bosch)

Boost (Shimano) is like Turbo (Bosch) - but the Shimano is slightly more abrupt/sharp/immediate in it's delivery whilst the Bosch is softer yet slightly more powerful.

Tour Bosch is like double Eco on Bosch

Trail (Shimano) is similar to EMTB (Bosch) - but I'd say EMTB on the Bosch varies the power automatically as required between Tour and slightly less than Turbo, whereas Trail on the Shimano varies the power required between Eco and Boost - setting off gently in EMTB Bosch is immediately more assistive (could catch you off guard) than setting off in Trail on the Shimano - which is just like eco. I think Trail on the Shimano is slightly more intuitive than EMTB on the Bosch.

Eco, Trail, Turbo on a Specialized Brose is similar to Eco/Tour/Turbo on a Bosch except they all react a little bit (but not totally) like different level versions of Bosch EMTB mode (but not as intuitive) in the way they respond to pedal input to power output.

There are so many tiny differences in how the motors react to how you pedal and how they respond that none of them are really directly comparable. They're just different and you adapt to each.

Brose > quiet climbing (whines a bit with higher revs), quiet descending
Bosch > Whines but not offensively, rattles like a loose phone mount or derailleur when not pedalling on bumpy terrain - flat or descending.
E8000 > Whines - more intrusively but quiet when not pedalling.
EP8 (not ridden one) > Quiet climbing - similar rattle to the Bosch when not pedalling.

 

[JoeBlow]

I bow to your superior knowledge but personally I still prefer the feel of the Bosch. Not that I've ridden anything else extensively so perhaps I should keep my mouth shut

To the OP: Listen to Zimmerframe, I suspect he is far more knowledgeable than me. I'm simply expressing a personal preference with limited experience.

Al

 

[ggx]

So Shimano trail mode is more a do it all mode and with possible more range compared to emtb bosch ? Also I supose rider can have more imput in the shimano motor system than with bosch. Looking fwd to have a ride with the shimano but test bikes are in shortage .

 

[stiv674]

Not that I've ridden a bike with Bosch motor but you can configure the Shimano in each setting, which I don't think you can with the Bosch... ? If that's something you like to be able to do.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I bow to your superior knowledge but personally I still prefer the feel of the Bosch. Not that I've ridden anything else extensively so perhaps I should keep my mouth shut

To the OP: Listen to Zimmerframe, I suspect he is far more knowledgeable than me. I'm simply expressing a personal preference with limited experience.

Al

I don't disagree with you on that front I prefer the Bosch too ! ?

I hate the controller (purion) compared to the brose nice small buttons or shimano nice small buttons.

And I like that I can configure the Shimano and the Brose ..

But for riding as a whole, I prefer the Bosch.

 

[Zimmerframe]

So Shimano trail mode is more a do it all mode and with possible more range compared to emtb bosch ? Also I supose rider can have more imput in the shimano motor system than with bosch. Looking fwd to have a ride with the shimano but test bikes are in shortage .

Basically, yes.

But if you want to plod or go for high range/elevation, you just put the Bosch in Eco. If you want to ride, you put in in EMTB and it does what you want.

It's just the Shimano Trail mode is a bit more "intelligent" ??!? But in terms of actual riding, I don't think it makes any real world difference.

 

[wildsau2]

configuring the assist levels is essential for me. i tweak my settings regarding weather conditions (winter more, spring less, …).
then, i prefer updating the system by myself.
so, shimano wins.

 

[Hamina]

Not that I've ridden a bike with Bosch motor but you can configure the Shimano in each setting, which I don't think you can with the Bosch... ? If that's something you like to be able to do.

You can configure the assistance levels if you have the Bosch Nyon bike computer. I would still say that the added value is not worth the extra 300€ for Nyon as it rarely comes installed with a new bike.

Trek’s EMTB lite has been a real game changer for me. I couldn’t think riding without it anymore.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Trek’s EMTB lite has been a real game changer for me. I couldn’t think riding without it anymore.

Don't see any reason why none trek bosch users couldn't get a trek dealer to flash their firmware for the Trek one if they wanted it - it's all the same hardware. (Though apparently if you try it, it won't work, so might be related to serial numbers).

I think eco is 55% (Max Torque 40)
Tour is 120% (Max Torque 50)
EMTB mode is 140% to 340% (Max Torque 75)
EMTB Lite is 140% to 250%
Turbo 340% (Max Torque 85)


It's a bit strange they didn't have it start at 120% but maybe there's something about how the sensors/software work that it can't accurately deliver giving you less than 140% with the algorithm (or whatever) they use to determine what assistance to give.

I find Tour pulls pretty strongly. Not far off how I have trail setup on my Kenevo, but on the right terrain it will still eat through battery.

This was after 3km's in eco and tour a couple of days ago and taken in tour :

After 25km's and just lost dropped to 2 bars - so better than it was predicting, but I had eased off and done some flatter bits too :

 

[Zimmerframe]

Just found this which explains EMTB lite /Magictour a bit more. The Trek version (EMTB lite) limits the maximum power more than Magictour.

New Bosch MAGIC TOUR mode – a progressive mode with increased range and improved responsiveness, for Moustache only?

Moustache are updating their Bosch e-bikes with the progressive MAGIC TOUR mode. Can this latest software increase the range of your battery?

ebike-mtb.com

 

[Tubby G]

Just found this which explains EMTB lite /Magictour a bit more. The Trek version (EMTB lite) limits the maximum power more than Magictour.

View attachment 63721

New Bosch MAGIC TOUR mode – a progressive mode with increased range and improved responsiveness, for Moustache only?

Moustache are updating their Bosch e-bikes with the progressive MAGIC TOUR mode. Can this latest software increase the range of your battery?

ebike-mtb.com

I did consider asking my lbs to upgrade my bikes to EMTB lite, but you have to replace Tour mode with EMTB lite, and Tour mode is pretty much my default mode so don’t want to sacrifice that. I’ve started using ECO on the trails thinking it might increase the range, but it doesn’t make a lot of difference as once you’re up to speed you’re not using the motor anyway, and Tour gives you that extra oomph when starting off at the gates, which I like

 

[Planemo]

It's a bit strange they didn't have it start at 120% but maybe there's something about how the sensors/software work that it can't accurately deliver giving you less than 140% with the algorithm (or whatever) they use to determine what assistance to give.

Having read your quote above, (and seen the subsequent graph) I'm surprised too. Shocked even. I would never had said that EMTB mode ran a higher minimum assist than Tour. To me, EMTB (not the lite version either) feels like it gives virtually zero assist all the way up to mental depending on pedal input.

It really is an amazing ride mode. Smooth as silk all the way through. So much so that I ride on it 90% of the time, even on the road, where tour or especially turbo can be a bit much off the line in some circs. On the other end of the scale, I deliberately picked a monster off-road grassed hill yesterday to test EMTB on. Went onto the 50t and just powered up - effortless, no wheelspin, no difficulty keeping the front down, I honestly couldn't believe it. And inbetween dull road road work and knarly hills, EMTB is still delicate enough to tackle slow/fast transitions on the trails between rocks/roots/bumps etc. To have one mode that can do all this is a staggering achievement by Bosch IMO.

In short, between the stock modes I have no need at all to have a system thats user-adjustable.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Just had a Bosch ride which has almost blown my mind ... will be posting something after food and beer

 

[mtndug]

I prefer the Bosch but EMTB mode is not really the same as Trail mode as far as I can tell. Trail is more like Tour on the Bosch. EMTB is a sort of power on demand mode similar to "automatic". I like EMTB mode because it doesn't seem to give you that surprise, unwanted sudden boost that you can get with Turbo. I find myself using EMTB most of the time these days.

Al

I've been doing all of my rides (in the mountains) in EMTB mode. It's made climbing a joy and it's responsive on demand power.

 

[Doomanic]

The Trek version (EMTB lite) limits the maximum power more than Magictour.

Have you got a link that confirms that?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Have you got a link that confirms that?

"Trek are offering their customers the so-called eMTB Lite mode as a replacement for the TOUR mode. They also developed their “light” eMTB mode in partnership with Bosch, and it too offers progressive assistance. The difference lies in the maximum support, as Trek’s eMTB Lite mode only assists with up to 250 % of your own effort, decreasing with an increasing cadence of over 45 revolutions per minute."

From just after halfway down in the article linked in post #12.

Though that last part doesn't seem right ...

 

[Doomanic]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the Torque output. IMO, EMTBLite should be lower torque than EMTB as well as lower assist, otherwise what's the point in having both?