Orbea Rise vs Levo SL range

[kurtshmiddie]

Orbea Rise riders please help me with my decision between the Levo SL and Orbea Rise. Range is very high on my requirements. I live in Colorado and returning to the high country is part of my interest in having an emtb. On the EMBN they have a great comparison of the Levo SL vs Levo range. Levo SL achieved almost 20 miles at Boost with just over 2100 feet elevation gain. Impressive results making me very comfortable with the Levo SL range even before considering the battery extender. The terrain was hilly with dual track road and singletrack with heavier tires. So... any thoughts/input on expected range on the Rise in boost. I can work backwards on expected range knowing what the bike can achieve in boost. I am only interested in these two bikes due to my interest in providing more energy and wanting the feel of a lighter bike.

 

[mark.ai]

There are some interesting range comparisons of different EMTBs here you can check: E-MTB Reichweitenvergleich: 96 E-Mountainbikes im Vergleich (emtb-news.de)

English translated link: Web Translator (translatetheweb.com)

May not be useful though given all the different possible variables between rides.

Their comparison puts the SL range higher than the Rise looking at per kWh:

But guess you need to take account of different battery sizes too.

 

[mark.ai]

Hmm I was curious now what the equivalent values would be for SL with just the internal 320Wh battery instead of 480 from that test:

• Range = 38 km
• Altitude = 757 height meters

So still more than the Rise

 

[Gutch]

Hmm I was curious now what the equivalent values would be for SL with just the internal 320Wh battery instead of 480 from that test:

• Range = 38 km
• Altitude = 757 height meters

So still more than the Rise

Perhaps, but isnt the Rise extender larger than the SL?

 

[jka]

Both are great bikes. I have a Rise and I've ridden a Levo SL. I think you're not comparing equally if you compare both on boost setting. The Levo provides 35Nm of torque and the Rise provides 60 Nm of torque. I found the Levo SL to be slightly underpowered for what I wanted. It felt to me like the Levo Sl on Boost was about the same as the Rise on Trail setting. That was just a seat of the pants assessment and not even on the same day, but what I felt none the less. If you compare the Rise Trail setting to Boost on the Levo SL, you might very well get different results as far as range. Just my thoughts.

 

[KeithR]

There are some interesting range comparisons of different EMTBs here you can check: E-MTB Reichweitenvergleich: 96 E-Mountainbikes im Vergleich (emtb-news.de)

English translated link: Web Translator (translatetheweb.com)

May not be useful though given all the different possible variables between rides.

Their comparison puts the SL range higher than the Rise looking at per kWh:

View attachment 49837

But guess you need to take account of different battery sizes too.

The 480wh battery value for the SL incudes the range extender - was that intended?

 

[kurtshmiddie]

If you follow the provided link they provide additional info on range. "The light Levo SL only has a battery capacity of 320 Wh and logically doesn't go that far at full support level. We travel 35 kilometers on our range drive. It is different when using the range extender, which provides 160 Wh extra capacity and a total of 480 Wh. With this, the SL drives away from the normal Levo. We cover 57 kilometers and 1136 meters in altitude "

It looks like the range of the Levo SL and the Rise are about the same even though the rise has more power. if you take into account the range extender for the Rise it looks like it is going to have a really great range.

 

[KeithR]

I've regularly done 40 miles and come back with 2 bars (whatever that is in practice - plenty, anyway) on my SL, without an extender.

Admittedly not in mountains, but with plenty of up-and-down - fire roads, steep valleys, and the like - and rarely in Turbo: but I ride pretty hard, generally up around the cut-off throughout, and I've never had a moment's range anxiety.

With that said, in early tests I did run Turbo for the length of some rides, and c. 30 miles of range wasn't a problem.

 

[kurtshmiddie]

That would make sense since these test were conducted with hilly terrain.. Also rider weights could be different. Both bikes look awesome and this data leaves me feeling confident that the Rise will have sufficient range for the high country rides I want to continue to do. The Levo SL looks like it can go further but with a little more effort. I really like the looks of the Rise and so the wait continues on the deposit I have down.

 

[mark.ai]

The 480wh battery value for the SL incudes the range extender - was that intended?

You're right - I realised that at some point! Guess I should have read the linked ride reviews too.

It's still amazing how efficient the SL is per Wh of the battery

 

[mark.ai]

Perhaps, but isnt the Rise extender larger than the SL?

Good point Interesting to compare if they both had range extenders too. (Remembering it's just their data from 2 different rides on 2 different days etc)

Extrapolating their data gives me this:

Which comes out almost the same for both ... in fact it's uncanny how close!

They both seem to have really good range considering it was boost

 

[kurtshmiddie]

In the meantime If any Rise owner's would write some reviews of the bike and the range that would be great!

 

[kurtshmiddie]

Thanks for the reply. That is really impressive range on the Levo SL. I am really impressed by the motor and the bike. This is a really hard choice for me. I have ridden the Levo SL and loved it. I like the price and kit that you get on the Rise and the bike looks really good. I know the Levo SL motor has great sealing from a review I saw from "Rob Rides". Does anyone know if the Shimano motor in the Rise is as well sealed.

 

[brizi2003]

Both are great bikes. I have a Rise and I've ridden a Levo SL. I think you're not comparing equally if you compare both on boost setting. The Levo provides 35Nm of torque and the Rise provides 60 Nm of torque. I found the Levo SL to be slightly underpowered for what I wanted. It felt to me like the Levo Sl on Boost was about the same as the Rise on Trail setting. That was just a seat of the pants assessment and not even on the same day, but what I felt none the less. If you compare the Rise Trail setting to Boost on the Levo SL, you might very well get different results as far as range. Just my thoughts.

I agree - if you were to set the Orbea Rise to produce the same power output as the Levo SL produces in boost mode it would appear to have a significantly greater range than the Levo SL. This seems correct given that with both bikes in boost, and fitted with their extenders, they have almost identical ranges. The fact that the Levo SL achieves this with the smaller battery capacity (480wH vs 612 wH) does not really tell you anything about the motor efficiency though, just that it produces/consumes less power when in boost mode than the Orbea Rise produces when in boost. So coming back to the original question - if range is important it's almost certain that the range of the Orbea will be greater than the Levo SL - when delivering the same motor support and the same speed.

 

[cappuccino34]

Surely the realistic comparison would be both bikes set to the same assistance level, assuming that they can both be set that way?

I bet there's next to nothing in it on the same route.

 

[KeithR]

Surely the realistic comparison would be both bikes set to the same assistance level, assuming that they can both be set that way?

I bet there's next to nothing in it on the same route.

I'll bet there is: the Mahle 1.1 is definitely a more efficient design, being 48v rather than 36v in the case of the Shimano - that can add up to as much as 33% more efficiency, other things being equal.

 

[sendler2112]

So... any thoughts/input on expected range on the Rise in boost. I can work backwards on expected range knowing what the bike can achieve in boost.

Comparing the Levo SL in boost mode to the Orbea Rise in boost is not fair since the Rise will be offering almost twice the power and be going much faster up the climbs. Both motors are very efficient and low drag so given an equivalent climb rate, the larger battery in the Rise should offer slightly more range even if it is a kg heavier. The pricing and capacity of the Rise external extender battery is a better value if you want more.

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

I'll bet there is: the Mahle 1.1 is definitely a more efficient design, being 48v rather than 36v in the case of the Shimano - that can add up to as much as 33% more efficiency, other things being equal.

Not quite, I made a video about 36V vs 48v systems. In short, 48V systems have less thermal loss in the motor, motor controller and in the battery (incl BMC) which affects energy efficiency.
Video here if interested:

 

[sendler2112]

I'll bet there is: the Mahle 1.1 is definitely a more efficient design, being 48v rather than 36v in the case of the Shimano - that can add up to as much as 33% more efficiency, other things being equal.

I don't think you can make that type of direct relationship of voltage to efficiency. It comes down to wasted heat. Which will be somewhat less with the higher voltage depending on the wire cross section. But not 33%. If it was that easy to double the range of an ebike just by selecting a higher voltage, all systems would be at least 60v.

 

[MTB911]

SL 320+160 - 480
Rise 360 + 252 - 612

Rise - if you set in E-Tube Max torque 35Nm - the same as Levo SL + similar % support
Rise should have bigger range. I hope that someone will check and test.

 

[KeithR]

But not 33%

That's why I said "...as much as 33% more efficiency, other things being equal" - to acknowledge that theoretical and actual differences are likely to differ.

My point stands, though: there will be a difference between the Rise and the SL - articles and videos reviewing the two have already reported it.

And lets not forget, by Orbea's own admission the reason for the bike's pegged motor output is to get the bike's range up to a degree of competitiveness with the likes of the SL.

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

That's why I said "...as much as 33% more efficiency, other things being equal" - to acknowledge that theoretical and actual differences are likely to differ.

My point stands, though: there will be a difference between the Rise and the SL - articles and videos reviewing the two have already reported it.

And lets not forget, by Orbea's own admission the reason for the bike's pegged motor output is to get the bike's range up to a degree of competitiveness with the likes of the SL.

Theoretically there will be 33% less current to reach the same power. That does not translate into 33% better efficiency. However, the thermal loss (which is the largest factor to consider) is propotional to the square of the current (thermal loss = R x I^2). There are also other benefits with a 48V system which I at least tried to communicate in my video.

But we do agree, the SL has got a better system from an energy efficiency perspective.

 

[sendler2112]

Not quite, I made a video about 36V vs 48v systems.

You sent me down a rabbit hole. Thanks.
The excellent motor simulator on the Grin Tech site gives us some clues as to the possible efficiency gains from increasing system voltages. I set the throttle to yield the same motor power of 250 watts and chose a 6 turn motor for 48v and 5T motor for the 36v system to get the best efficiency for each that I could come up with. Which showed the complete system of battery/ controller/ motor, losses and efficiency to be only about 1% better for the 48v system.
.

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

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[Olof Bike Adventures]

You sent me down a rabbit hole. Thanks.
The excellent motor simulator on the Grin Tech site gives us some clues as to the possible efficiency gains from increasing system voltages. I set the throttle to yield the same motor power of 250 watts and chose a 6 turn motor for 48v and 5T motor for the 36v system to get the best efficiency for each that I could come up with. Which showed the complete system of battery/ controller/ motor, losses and efficiency to be only about 1% better for the 48v system.
.

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

.
View attachment 50122
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View attachment 50123
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Very weird result, that there should not be any difference at all. I checked with people who work with these systems that claim that there is a significant difference in efficiency due to thermal loss (which absolutely differs), power drops from the battery and added electrical resistance due to higher temperatures. But I will gladly check your link!

Would be fun to send Mahle an email and ask why they went for a 48V system. I guess that they will not agree with Grin Tech.

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

PS. Have now sent email to Mahle. ?

 

[Gutch]

Doc, I’ve built a time machine...

 

[cappuccino34]

1% theoretical difference doesn't surprise me.

Differences will be pretty negligible if the systems are designed to run at the voltage that they use.
It's not as though Bosch, for example, are new to the idea of using electric motors, is it?
Given the relentless drive to increase output and efficiency whilst minimising weight, if big gains were to be had from running higher voltage they would have done. They absolutely definitely wouldn't have left 33% wanting.

The SL has a tiny motor with less than half the peak output of the others, so it can get away with smaller gears, bearings, clutches etc, so it's fair to expect it to be more frugal due to parasitic drag.

It won't be 33% better at the same actual power output, maybe as much as 5% in reality, but no more. It would be interesting to do an actual like for like comparison rather than just saying that one or the other is better because you happen to own one and you'd take it to bed with you if you could.

 

[sendler2112]

I just ran the comparison again with the output and load cranked to the point of overheating both motors in 20 minutes. The efficiency drops into the 70's and the 48v system does increase it's efficiency advantage but only to 1.7%.
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[Olof Bike Adventures]

1% theoretical difference doesn't surprise me.

Differences will be pretty negligible if the systems are designed to run at the voltage that they use.
It's not as though Bosch, for example, are new to the idea of using electric motors, is it?
Given the relentless drive to increase output and efficiency whilst minimising weight, if big gains were to be had from running higher voltage they would have done. They absolutely definitely wouldn't have left 33% wanting.

The SL has a tiny motor with less than half the peak output of the others, so it can get away with smaller gears, bearings, clutches etc, so it's fair to expect it to be more frugal due to parasitic drag.

It won't be 33% better at the same actual power output, maybe as much as 5% in reality, but no more. It would be interesting to do an actual like for like comparison rather than just saying that one or the other is better because you happen to own one and you'd take it to bed with you if you could.

I am not biased towards any specific system, I just want to learn. The 33% increase in efficiency that suddenly came up in this discussion is wrong, so let's leave that behind us. I would expect that a 48V system would gain more than 1% efficiency, perhaps around 5% (a wild guess that is, I don't know). The assumptions that I have are from talking to people who have worked with electrical motor systems. But lets see if Mahle will help us out.
My personal bet is that in the future we will see systems with higher voltages. There are no downsides, only upsides. How large the upsides are, we don't really know yet here in this forum (I think...).

 

[TorAtle]

Great discussion. I own both bikes. In order to quantify a meaningful difference in efficiency the motor systems would have to be bench tested as I believe the difference is so small. The Rise has a 12.5% larger battery which trumps the difference in efficiency, thus the Rise will go further. With extenders the range difference will be even higher. I do believe however that there are more important things to take into consideration when choosing between the two bikes.