Motor drop guidance?

[shredjim]

In attempting to install a SC - EM800 display, my dropper post cable housing is stuck and I will need to drop the motor to get access to it. Is it possible to drop the motor enough to access the dropper cable housing without taking off the crank? If I have to remove the crank and crank arms, chain guide etc., what special tools will I need?

 

[Rod B.]

In attempting to install a SC - EM800 display, my dropper post cable housing is stuck and I will need to drop the motor to get access to it. Is it possible to drop the motor enough to access the dropper cable housing without taking off the crank? If I have to remove the crank and crank arms, chain guide etc., what special tools will I need?

ShredJim,

Unfortunately, the crank arm on the drive side has to come off. One of the motor mounting bolts on the drive side cannot be fully removed because it hits the chainring. I imagine it’s possible to remove the bolt if you use enough force, but you will likely damage the bolt or the chainring.

Regarding your issue with the dropper cable housing. I’m guessing you inadvertently let the dropper cable housing fall down inside the downtube too far? It happened to me once and I had to drop the motor in order to push the housing back up into the head tube. Shit happens and life is one big learning experience.

I wrote this several months back regarding replacing a brake hose, dropper or derailleur housing and dropping the motor to ease installation. Here it is again.

Note: I learned this tip from another forum user. It’s possible to replace housing/hose without dropping the motor. Take an all thread machine screw that will thread into the inside diameter of the brake hose or cable housing. Cut the head off the machine screw. Thread one end of the machine screw into the old hose/housing and thread the other end of the screw into the new hose/housing. Thread both hoses together until they meet up tightly with no gap. Coat the new hose/housing with silicone lubricant and slowly pull the new hose or housing through the frame using the old hose/housing. You will have to use finesse and patience to get the housing up through the seat tube if replacing the dropper housing, or if replacing the brake hose or derailleur housing to get them through the black rubber guide tubes and chain stay.

If you or any other forum user wishes to replace the rear brake hose, derailleur, or dropper cable housing on their Rise, or wishes to drop the motor, here is my process. I am not a professional mechanic. I am 100% sure there are multiple ways to replace a rear hose or dropper/derailleur cable housing on a Rise. I’ve dropped the motor on my Rise many times, this is my process and it works for me. I'm happy to learn from others if you have a better suggestion.

1) I like to drop the motor only a few inches when I replace my brake hose or dropper/shift cable housing. I do not disconnect any wires and I lower the motor onto a padded stool which I place several inches beneath the motor. There is enough slack in the wiring to do this. The motor's bottom is slightly uneven. I use a towel placed on the stool as padding to help stabilize the motor and prevent it from rolling off of the stool while I work. The whole process of removing the motor takes me a little less than ten minutes to do.

NOTE: To lower the motor, you must gain access and remove all six of the hex head bolts. Unfortunately, the chainring prevents one of the hex head bolts from being fully removed and it'll hang the motor up. The chainring must be removed in order to completely remove the bolt. It may be possible to remove the bolt without removing the chainring, but my guess is you'll end up damaging the chainring or the finish on the bolt.

I start by raising my bike up on a bicycle stand. I wrap a velcro strap around the rear brake lever and lock the rear brake. The locked rear brake keeps the front chainring from turning when you go to loosen the chainring nut. If you cannot lock your rear brake, i.e. the caliper has been removed, you can use a chain whip tool to hold the chainring while you loosen the nut. I use Park Tool's "LRT-2 Shimano Steps Lockring Socket Tool" to loosen the chainring spindle nut. There are other lockring socket tools available for sale on Amazon that work equally well.

2) Remove the drive side crank arm and chain guide. Place your lockring socket tool on the chainring spindle nut and turn it "Clockwise" to loosen and remove the spindle nut. Note that the shaft is reverse thread and to loosen the nut you must turn the nut clockwise.

3) Pull the derailleur swing arm forward to un-tension the chain. Remove the chain from the chainring. With the chainring nut removed, pull the chainring off the drive spindle with a slight pull. Once the chainring is removed, you now will have access to all six motor mount hex bolts.

4) Jiggle the motor loose and "Slowly" lower the motor down a few inches and onto the stool. Make sure the motor doesn't fall off the stool. There are three aluminum spacers used with the six bolts to mount the motor to the frame. One or more of the spacers may fall out when you remove the motor from the frame. Two of the spacers will have a small machined shoulder. These two spacers mount inside the frame at the front of the motor. The third spacer is flat on both sides and mounts at the back of the motor, non-drive side.

5) With the motor lowered, you now have access to all brake hose, cable housing and electrical connections. Inspect the shifter and dropper cable housing for wear. If they look bad, now's the time to replace them. Also check your wiring to make sure none of the insulation has been rubbed off from vibration.

6) The angle where the lower downtube opening meets at the frame motor mount is sharp. You want your brake hose and dropper/derailleur cable housings where they exit the downtube and make the sharp bend and transition up and over the top of the motor to be snug, but not so snug that the brake hose and cable housings will chafe and rub against the downtube opening. At the same time, you don't want so much slack in the hose and housing that when you go to re-insert the motor, you mash the excess slack in the hose and housing against the frame and motor. This too will cause excess rubbing and chafing on the hose, housing and motor wiring. I like to give the brake hose and cable housing a finger's width of slack between the downtube and the top of the frame where the motor mounts. The goal is to make sure the hose/housing isn’t so long you smash or kink the hose when reinstalling the motor or you inadvertently pinch the brake hose or cable housing if it bends too tightly or sharply out of the downtube and back up over the motor. In other words, too tight and it will rub, too much slack and things get mashed.

7) Prior to mounting the motor, have your Nm torque wrench, blue thread locker and non-IPA beer handy. Make sure the threads on the motor mounting bolts are clear of bulked up thread locker. If they are, clean them up with an old tooth brush. Make sure the six threaded bolt holes on the motor are also clear of debris by blowing air into the motor mounting holes.

With your fingers, reach up into the frame and make sure the front two motor spacers are pushed all the way into their respective sockets at the front frame motor mounts. Lift the motor up into place. You will have to wiggle the motor a little bit to line up the first few bolts. The rear non-drive side aluminum spacer can be fussy to get into place. I've found it much easier to hold it against the motor and slide both the motor and spacer into position at the same time. Apply a small dab of blue thread locker onto each of the six bolts and install. Do not tighten the bolts until all of the bolts have been threaded into place. Torque the bolts to specification as listed in the "Blue Paper" Rise owner's manual.

8) With a rag, clean the splined motor spindle. Check for cracks near the hole in the spindle. Clean the spines on the chainring. Place a light coating of lubricant on the spindle splines and chainring splines. Slide the chainring all the way onto the drive spindle. Install the chainring lockring nut and finger tighten counter-clockwise. With your lockring tool, turn the nut counter-clockwise to tighten the lockring to torque specifications.

Note: E13 has a technical service bulletin (TSB # 157, EP8 motor spindle inspection) procedure for checking the spindle for cracks.

https://support.ethirteen.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408312390043-TSB-157-Shimano-EP8-Spindle-Inspection-in-Conjunction-with-e-thirteen-e-spec-Cranks

9) Re-install your crankarm and chainguide arm. I use blue thread locker on the two clamp bolts and tighten to torque specifications. I also use a very small amount of blue thread locker on the threaded crank arm fixing cap.

Note: E13 has a technical service bulletin (TSB # 156, Alloy crank arms) in regards to installation and proper torque on E13 alloy crank arms.

TSB #156 - e*spec Shimano™ alloy crank tech update

TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN #156.2 e*spec Shimano™ alloy crank tech update Product(s) included: e*thirteen e*spec Shimano EP8 alloy cranks. Abstract e*spec Shimano EP8/EP800 alloy cranks were dev...

support.ethirteen.com

10) Install the chain and lower the chain guide top piece into position and tighten.

11) Go ride and never buy a couch.

 

[MOG]

Good write up, thanks for posting. FWIW it IS possible to drop the motor with no damage without removing the chainring. But it was one of the most stressful evenings of my life and not to be recommended. You will also need a sacrificial allen key to be cut down to fit behind the chainring. The very snug fitting bolt that hangs against the back of the ring on removal will not come out untill all the other bolts are loose and you are able to wiggle the motor ever so slightly which gives up the 1/2 mm of play needed to cant the bolt over and out.

I now have the correct chainring tool and hope to never have to go through that again

 

[shredjim]

Excellent write up Rod, thanks for posting! Just what I needed. Picking up the LRT-2 tool tomorrow!

 

[shredjim]

I have a question - when putting the dropper post, cable housing etc. back into the seat tube, how do you adjust the the amount of dropper cable housing coming out of the head tube? This will be after I have put the 300 wire from the motor to the newly installed display. Do you just pull it until it is tight, and then put the finger width of slack in at the sharp bend as Rod describes above? Please describe the process of installing the dropper post, cable and housing. Thanks!

 

[Rod B.]

I have a question - when putting the dropper post, cable housing etc. back into the seat tube, how do you adjust the the amount of dropper cable housing coming out of the head tube? This will be after I have put the 300 wire from the motor to the newly installed display. Do you just pull it until it is tight, and then put the finger width of slack in at the sharp bend as Rod describes above? Please describe the process of installing the dropper post, cable and housing. Thanks!

I sent Jim a separate conversation on re-installing the dropper post and Shimano SC-EM800 display.

Here is an excerpt from our conversation. I’m attaching it below for those who come across the issue of accidentally letting the dropper post cable housing travel too far down into the headtube or seat tube during the SC-EM800 display installation, and the housing cannot be readily retrieved. I did this exact same thing during an install of a SC-EM800 display on a friend’s Rise. It’s very easy to do and caution should be taken to avoid letting this happen.

Issue One: I’ve covered the SC-EM800 display installation in a separate post, however, know that you must access the wire bundle and remove the SD50 wire jumper and AD305 adapter. The SD300 wire is then run out of the head tube and to the SC-EM800 display. You have to back the dropper cable housing out of the head tube port in order to pass the head of the SD300 wire lead through the head tube port. It won’t fit if the cable housing is running through the port. The wire has to be installed first, then the dropper post cable housing.

There are “U” loops molded into the inner wall of the headtube to retain the wiring, cable housing and rear brake hose and keep them from rubbing on the steerer tube. During the routing of the SD300 wire through the inner headtube “U” loop and out the port, you’ve got your fingers jammed into the headtube to sort it out. The dropper post cable housing has been previously been pushed back out of the headtube port and into the headtube. IF you are not absolutely careful, the dropper housing will slide out of the retaining loop and slide down inside the downtube where it’s extremely difficult to retrieve without dropping the motor to push the housing back up. I would recommend that to be safe, take a length of thread/fishing line and taping it to the end of the dropper housing before you push it back through the headtube port. If it does accidentally slide down into the headtube, you can pull it back up using the safety thread.

Issue Two: This scenario is the more likely to occur. It happened to me. To push the dropper housing out of the headtube port, you have to release the cable wire from the dropper post lever. This loosens tension on the cable. The cable end may become detached from the actuating lever on the base of the dropper post. Not knowing this, you complete the SC-EM800 display, reattach everything and check your dropper post only to find it doesn’t work. You loosen the seat post clamp and pull up on the dropper post to see what the problem is. Out comes the dropper post, but the wire which separated from the dropper post and the housing stay well down and out of reach inside the seat post tube. I’ve tried removing the On/Off button to get access to the housing and shove it back up. It doesn’t help much. It’s quicker to just drop the motor and sort things out.

Prevention: Here is the easiest way to prevent the housing issue from occurring in the first place. When you begin the SC-EM800 installation, the first thing you want to do is loosen the seat post clamp. Then loosen the cable clamp on the dropper post lever. You must maintain tension on the dropper cable wire after releasing the cable clamp on the dropper post lever. If you don’t, the cable may separate from the base of the dropper post actuator hook. As you maintain tension on cable wire, slowly pull the dropper post up and out of the seat tube while feeding the dropper cable housing through the head tube port. Do this until the dropper cable housing has cleared the top of the seat post tube a few inches. You can now safely release tension on the cable and go about the display installation process.

After the above happened to Jim, here is my response to his question about housing slack at pinch points.

Jim, as you've probably noted after dropping the front fork and looked down into the headtube, Orbea has molded several "U" shaped loops into the inner wall on the right and left sides of the headtube. The loops holds the wiring, dropper cab, derailleur cable and rear brake hose and keeps the items from rubbing on the fork steerer tube. You must run the SD300 wire and cable through the loops and then out the port opening at the front of the headtube.

BEFORE you push the dropper post cable housing through the headtube loop and out the port, you must first have the SD300 wire running through the loop and port. If you don't install the wire first, the dropper cable housing will block the headtube port and the SD300 wire lead will not fit through the port. Run your display wiring first. Ask me how I know this...

I measured the length of my SD-300 wire from the head tube port out to the end of the lead that will plug into the display. It measures exactly eight inches. You will have a length of SD300 cable left over in the downtube. Wrap it back into a bundle and reinstall it into the foam pad. Either zip tie the foam pad or wrap it in tape and tuck it back into the downtube for safekeeping.

Keep your EW-AD305 adapter, EN-100 black box and EW-SD50 jumper wire and put them in a small bag. Keep the stuff in your back/hip pack. If you go down hard and brick your display, your bike won't work. You can do a quick trail repair by hooking the black box back up and get yourself back on the trail.

Okay, lets talk cable adjustment (Motor Removed)

1. Start off by screwing your dropper lever barrel nut adjuster all the way in and back out one half turn.

2. Feed the dropper cable housing through the headtube loop and out the headtube port about five inches so you can get a grip on it. Make sure the other end of the housing is peeking above the top of the seat tube so you can get you fingers on it.

3. Push your wire cable all the way through the dropper housing starting from the seat tube side. Connect the nib end of the wire cable onto the actuating lever hook located on the bottom of the dropper post.

4.Here's where it gets tricky. Pull on the cable wire from the head tube side. Slowly remove all of the slack from the cable and housing so that the dropper cable housing slides all the way up into the guide hole at the base of the dropper post/actuating lever and is firmly stopped.

5. DO NOT LET GO OF THE WIRE CABLE. KEEP TENSION ON IT.....If you allow slack in the wire cable, the nib end will pop out of the actuating lever and you'll have to start the whole process over.

6. Insert the dropper post into the seat tube and slowly push the dropper post down while at the same time pull on the dropper housing and cable from the head tube side. This will keep the housing from bending and kinking up inside the seat tube. You can do all of this as long as you keep a firm grip and tension on the cable wire and housing as you pull from the head tube side.

7. Usually you'll have a dirt/wear mark on your dropper post housing where the height used to be adjusted to. While still keeping tension and a firm grip on the wire cable and housing. Lower the post to the dirt mark height and lightly tighten the post.

8. Run the dropper cable wire over to your dropper lever and run it through the fastening clamp/bolt. Pull tight on the wire. Do not let go. Insure that the end of the housing is fully inserted and seated into the dropper lever barrel nut adjuster. Tighten the cable clamp bolt.

9. Depress the dropper post and actuate the lever. Insure that the cable end did not pop loose and the dropper post works. You make have to back out the barrel nut adjuster to take out any remaining slack to get the dropper post to work easily.

10. After you have insured the dropper post is working, get down on your knees and reach up inside the motor mount plate and feel around the wires. Make absolutely sure no brake hose, derailleur or dropper housing is laying on top of a wire and either smashing or pinching one. You may have to move stuff around a bit to organize things.

11. When you have insured no wires are being pinched, reach up and feel for the dropper cable housing where it exits the seat tube hole at the motor mounting plate. With your fingers feel the dropper cable housing and insure it isn't tightly kinked or bent sharply at the opening. If the cable housing is tightly bent, lightly pull down on the housing where it exits the seat tube hole and gain a bit of slack so that the cable housing is not bent tightly. It has to bend, you just don't want it to be kinked or bit tightly. You want a nice radius bend.

12. Next, feel with you finger where the dropper cable housing exits the downtube and makes the sharp turn upwards to the top of the motor mount plate. Lightly pull on the dropper post housing from the battery/headtube side and give yourself a fingers width of slack in the housing so that the dropper housing is not rubbing or tightly bent on the downtube where the housing exits the downtube.

13. Double check nothing is pinched, kinked, spindled, folded or mutilated. Reinstall the motor as listed and you're good to go.

I hope I didn't miss anything. It's always a little tough thinking with your mind on an installation process and then putting it to paper.

 

[shredjim]

With the excellent guidance from Rod, I got it all together today, and the display works great. If you are attempting to install the Shimano SC-EM800 display, follow ALL of the guidance Rob posts regarding the dropper post and you might avoid several do overs like what happened to me. I'm much better at dropping the motor and putting it back in now for sure.