By Rob Hancill
News
182 Comments

New Bosch 2022 Motor System Announced

Bosch eBike Systems unveils new smart system and vision for e-mobility

[B]Headlines:[/B] [LIST] [*]New 750Wh battery
[*]New Kiox 300 Display
[*]New Handle Remote Controller
[*]New App to allow custom modes based on rider requirements
[*]None of this is backwards compatible, its an all new system with new connectors
[/LIST]

• The new smart system combines digital developments and significant hardware upgrades to further enhance the eBike riding experience.
• Bosch introduces a new large capacity battery, LED control unit and streamlined Kiox display.
• The new Flow App allows for unparalleled customisation of the riding experience and game-changing over-the-air updates.

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Rob Hancill
Creator of EMTB Forums. Owner of many cameras, computers and a couple of EMTB's. I also make YouTube videos on bikes and stuff.

182 Comments

  2. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 330837, member: 14174″]
    Saying that though, the new controller looks larger than the current Purion, has blingy bright LED’s (prefer LCD) and doesn’t display your speed
    [/QUOTE]
    The new controller looks like it belongs on this…

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70281[/ATTACH]

  3. finally.. if they had that customisable power / ride feature already I would have been way more likely to go with a bosch motor’d bike

  4. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330839, member: 52″]
    I’d agree except Bosch don’t sell bikes. They have frozen out a massive revenue stream of people with nearly new bikes who aren’t ready, can’t justify or can’t afford a new bike bike but could be tempted to upgrade to get better connectivity or adjustability on their current bike.
    [/QUOTE]

    True. I’m sure they could have designed backwards compatibility though and made the decision not to

    Thinking about it, if current Bosch motors were capable of customising the power modes, all I’d do is increase the power on all modes and as result decrease overall range, so sometimes less is more!

  5. Is new CX motor and 750Wh battery still 36Volts?
    If it is 48V, thats the answer why is not backwards compatible.

  6. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330841, member: 52″]
    The new controller looks like it belongs on this…

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”1630414536232.jpeg”]70281[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]

    What the f*** is that ? ? Reminds me of a sound box I had on my bike as a child. I had police sirens, machine gun noises and motorbike engine sounds ??

  7. It is an easy question whether or not there is a new engine because it is not clear to me

    Will there be a new Drive Unit?
    Answer: Yes, it will be a new one
    Performance Line CX. This Drive Unit
    will be the first engine of the system
    intelligent.
    How is Performance different
    Line CX AM22 of the current model?
    Answer: Performance wise, the
    Performance Line CX for the system
    smart is identical to the models
    current, but has other takes for the
    connecting the cables and connectors
    New development. The current model is
    will remain unchanged.

  8. [QUOTE=”Josepma, post: 330846, member: 12848″]
    It is an easy question whether or not there is a new engine because it is not clear to me

    Will there be a new Drive Unit?
    Answer: Yes, it will be a new one
    Performance Line CX. This Drive Unit
    will be the first engine of the system
    intelligent.
    How is Performance different
    Line CX AM22 of the current model?
    Answer: Performance wise, the
    Performance Line CX for the system
    smart is identical to the models
    current, but has other takes for the
    connecting the cables and connectors
    New development. The current model is
    will remain unchanged.
    [/QUOTE]
    Drive unit has identical performance, gearing and all drive / performance hardware the same, but, new electrical connectors so it fits with the new controller / Kiox / battery etc.

    So yes technically it is new, but only so it works with the new peripherals. There are no performance changes or improvements.

  9. Blimey, so bikes fitted with the new 750Wh battery could be nudging 26kg…

    Maybe I’m in a minority but I prefer the smaller battery and range extender route.

  10. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 330804, member: 1″]
    Bosch eBike Systems unveils new smart system and vision for e-mobility

    [B]Headlines:[/B]
    [LIST]
    [*]New 750Wh battery
    [*]New Kiox 300 Display
    [*]New Handle Remote Controller
    [*]New App to allow custom modes based on rider requirements
    [*]None of this is backwards compatible, its an all new system with new connectors
    [/LIST]

    • The new smart system combines digital developments and significant hardware upgrades to further enhance the eBike riding experience.
    • Bosch introduces a new large capacity battery, LED control unit and streamlined Kiox display.
    • The new Flow App allows for unparalleled customisation of the riding experience and game-changing over-the-air updates.
    [/QUOTE]

    The most important feature may perhaps be OTA updates. That was a huge fail on Bosch’s part to require dealer visits (and fees) for firmware and software updates.

  11. [QUOTE=”stiv674, post: 330856, member: 3069″]
    Blimey, so bikes fitted with the new 750Wh battery could be nudging 26kg…

    Maybe I’m in a minority but I prefer the smaller battery and range extender route.
    [/QUOTE]
    As seems to be the fashion – they keep using heavier cells each time a company makes a larger battery .. :p :unsure: :ROFLMAO:

    500wh Battery : 349mm – 2.9 kg
    625wh Battery : + 125wh + 67 mm + 600g
    750wh Battery : + 125wh + 68 mm + 900g !

  12. [QUOTE=”Welh, post: 330858, member: 18143″]
    What would be the benefit if the battery is 48V?
    [/QUOTE]
    You would get the same output wattage at lower current. Most likely less losses transferring current.

  13. [QUOTE=”Welh, post: 330858, member: 18143″]
    What would be the benefit if the battery is 48V?
    [/QUOTE]
    There where rumors that bosch will go 48V.
    Anyway no problems with 36V Bosch has an effektive system.
    Think the motor will be quite similar, dont really understand why they made a different
    charging interface and say this system will not be able to use dual battery.
    Would make much more sense to me if you could use 500/625 powertubes with adapters in
    the 750 tube.

  14. [QUOTE=”stratosa, post: 330844, member: 8930″]
    Is new CX motor and 750Wh battery still 36Volts?
    If it is 48V, thats the answer why is not backwards compatible.
    [/QUOTE]
    We asked whether it was 36V or 48V, unfortunately they didn’t answer.

    But they did answer our question about changes, that has been published previously in this thread. There are no changes to the motor hardware. I’m guessing that means it’s still 36V. A 48V motor would require different gearing I assume. Motor rotation speed increases with Voltage.

    Also, using the most energy dense cells of today, the only way to get 750 Wh is to go 36V: 60 cells * 3,6V * 3,5Ah = 756Wh

  15. So… if you can buy good old Bosch 2021 system in good price, go for it! Isn’t worth to wait to get this poor purion 😉 Especially the new bikes will be a 20% up priced…

  16. Pity the 625wh battery can’t still be used, I’ve a spare that’s handy for bike park days ? otherwise it all looks great imo ?

  17. Am I the only one preferring the old Purion over the new controller? The Purion still seems to be easier to use and then it has the speedometer too without the need for an extra display. The new controller isn’t exactly minimalistic.

  19. Pingback: New Bosch 2022 Motor System Announced – Cycletronic

  20. [QUOTE=”Olof Bike Adventures, post: 330876, member: 14147″]
    Am I the only one preferring the old Purion over the new controller?
    [/QUOTE]
    No, you’re not. All the Purion needs is battery percentage rather than bars and it would be perfect,

  21. Exciting to see things keep developing. I must say I’ve been disappointed with the EP8 range after I switched to a new bike a few months ago and miss the 700w from my Levo.

    I can’t wait to see what hits next year with this 750w system, the Bosch is a great motor.

    As for the pace at which developments create obsolescence I think that’s part of the territory with new technology, we all want the next best thing and thats what the market constantly try’s to deliver.

    we have to chose if it’s enough each time to buy in to the next best thing.

  22. The battery is the same than the actual 625Wh, just more cells (of the same type).
    So more lenght (will not fit in my backpack like my spare 625), and much more weight.
    The only thing interesting in this new system is the modes customisation.

  23. [QUOTE=”knut7, post: 330870, member: 281″]
    We asked whether it was 36V or 48V, unfortunately they didn’t answer.

    But they did answer our question about changes, that has been published previously in this thread. There are no changes to the motor hardware. I’m guessing that means it’s still 36V. A 48V motor would require different gearing I assume. Motor rotation speed increases with Voltage.

    Also, using the most energy dense cells of today, the only way to get 750 Wh is to go 36V: 60 cells * 3,6V * 3,5Ah = 756Wh
    [/QUOTE]
    It still is 36V.

  24. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330832, member: 52″]
    To make the motor that isn’t even 2 years old effectively obsolete is quite an achievement.
    [/QUOTE]

    Considering the motor is the same hardware, i don’t think this is the case. You just need to take it to shop for motor firmware update. Not that big a deal. I can’t see any reason why this motor wont get any future performance updates as the new model, considering they are identical drive wise.

  25. [QUOTE=”Timochka69, post: 330863, member: 114″]
    You would get the same output wattage at lower current. Most likely less losses transferring current.
    [/QUOTE]
    Less heat loss due to the lower amps used, higher cadence levels without having to resort to computer optimisation ( meaning better range ) and a few other incrementals such as better use of the new higher density 21700 cells now available ( 39 cells v 60 18650 cells )

    Bafang now seem to be pushing the 48 volt route, Mahle is already 48 volts, will 2 years time be the big shift to a Bosch 48 volt motor ?

  26. I don’t fully understand. First you ask for custom modes, nicer displays and controller. When they make it by changing the drive unit electronics you cry like a baby for backward compatibility. Has there been some promises for this?

    Luckily there’s a lot of old bikes with current setup and the rest can buy the both generations to really enjoy Bosch products.

    Range extenders are marginal business.

    I think this was good step straight to year 2021. I have old GEN4 and don’t feel bad for it.

  27. How does the Bosch compare to the Brose system for pedalling resistance once your over the speed limit – I ride with friends who have Cube Stereo & Spec Levo’s – the Cube gets dropped big time once over the 15mph limit? Looks like the mechanics are the same for this Bosch upgrade?

  28. [QUOTE=”Olof Bike Adventures, post: 330876, member: 14147″]
    The new controller isn’t exactly minimalistic.
    [/QUOTE]
    It needs to be large to hold the new 750wh battery 🙂 It just needs a few more buttons on it or maybe a full size keyboard ?

    Lets make it larger than most displays – but not have a display … ?

    [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330880, member: 52″]
    All the Purion needs is battery percentage rather than bars and it would be perfect,
    [/QUOTE]

    And tactile/haptic buttons so you can feel if you’ve actually pressed them or not.

    And a shape which enables you to mount it at the angle you desire in the position you desire.

    And a smaller screen – or little raised rubber bumper bars if it has to bet that large.

    And a slide out Specialized swat took kit as it’s large enough to accommodate it.

  29. [QUOTE=”Josepma, post: 330846, member: 12848″]
    It is an easy question whether or not there is a new engine because it is not clear to me

    Will there be a new Drive Unit?
    Answer: Yes, it will be a new one
    Performance Line CX. This Drive Unit
    will be the first engine of the system
    intelligent.
    How is Performance different
    Line CX AM22 of the current model?
    Answer: Performance wise, the
    Performance Line CX for the system
    smart is identical to the models
    current, but has other takes for the
    connecting the cables and connectors
    New development. The current model is
    will remain unchanged.
    [/QUOTE]

    any new materials being used?.. no
    any efficiency gains?.. no
    any peak power improvement?.. no
    any harder wearing inner parts?..no
    any weight savings?.. no
    any sound differences?.. no
    any cadence differences?.. no

    So want changes/enhancements has the “motor system” been given? Am I right or wrong?

    sorry, Im feeling pessimistic.

    New screen, more cells, different software? Yes??? What about the motor?

  30. [QUOTE=”Gordyboy, post: 330906, member: 18985″]
    How does the Bosch compare to the Brose system for pedalling resistance once your over the speed limit – I ride with friends who have Cube Stereo & Spec Levo’s – the Cube gets dropped big time once over the 15mph limit? Looks like the mechanics are the same for this Bosch upgrade?
    [/QUOTE]
    Your mate with the cube is in the wrong gear/unfit compared to the others. There is no drag from the motor on the bosch when over the motor cutout speed.

  31. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330832, member: 52″]
    To make the motor that isn’t even 2 years old effectively obsolete is quite an achievement.
    [/QUOTE]

    How is the old motor and system effectively obsolete?

    Just because it is not the latest model, and not upgradable to the latest model, that does not render it obsolete.
    My 2020 Gen4 will continue to work just the same as when I bought it, despite there being a newer model.
    Just the same as my Lyrik continues to function despite the introduction of a Zeb, and my 2020 Whyte works just the same despite the introduction of 2021 and 2022 models.

  32. [QUOTE=”apac, post: 330915, member: 5445″]
    any new materials being used?.. no
    any efficiency gains?.. no
    any peak power improvement?.. no
    any harder wearing inner parts?..no
    any weight savings?.. no
    any sound differences?.. no
    any cadence differences?.. no

    So want changes/enhancements has the “motor system” been given? Am I right or wrong?

    sorry, Im feeling pessimistic.

    New screen, more cells, different software? Yes??? What about the motor?
    [/QUOTE]
    Hey, If Spesh can say a motor is new and call it a 2.2 when it’s exactly the same as the 2.1 has been for the previous 6 months, then Bosch can say exactly the same motor is new too.. Though it does sound like maybe they’ve added/enabled bluetooth in the motor and possibly changed firmware only settings to now be software configurable settings. So, some new boards, but not mechanical changes.

  33. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330880, member: 52″]
    No, you’re not. All the Purion needs is battery percentage rather than bars and it would be perfect,
    [/QUOTE]
    I agree, all I would like is a percentage display instead of bars.

    I’ve got no interest in phaffing about tweaking settings with an app, and while more range is appealing I think 625wh is a good balance of range/weight ratio. If I wanted the odd epic day out then I’d go the whole hog and buy a spare battery instead of carrying extra weight around all the time.

    I’m more than happy with the bike I bought a month ago and no doubt this new package will stick another 10% on the price of the already overpriced bikes fitted with it.

  34. [QUOTE=”Mteam, post: 330916, member: 11387″]
    Your mate with the cube is in the wrong gear/unfit compared to the others. There is no drag from the motor on the bosch when over the motor cutout speed.
    [/QUOTE]
    Totally. The Gen4 is zero draggy (Still a pig with 25kg’s of bike and tractor tyres, but you can still really push on if you accelerate past the limit, it drops off smoothly and kind of pushes you over it). But then the Brose is pretty much Zero draggy (but has a much harsher cut off). Maybe he has draggier tyres, draggy brakes or all the Brose’s are de-restricted ?

  35. Hold up, I’m confused!!

    This new system allows the firmware to be updated over the air and the wiring has been reworked. Plus the release of a 750wh battery and the scope to allow the motor perameters to be adjusted via the app.

    Doesn’t it stand to reason that Bosch will eventually release a firmware update to increase the maximum current flow from the battery, thereby increasing the newton meters of torque?

  36. [QUOTE=”Neeko DeVinchi, post: 330925, member: 14532″]
    Hold up, I’m confused!!

    This new system allows the firmware to be updated over the air and the wiring has been reworked. Plus the release of a 750wh battery and the scope to allow the motor perameters to be adjusted via the app.

    Doesn’t it stand to reason that Bosch will eventually release a firmware update to increase the maximum current flow from the battery, thereby increasing the newton meters of torque?
    [/QUOTE]
    I think it’s more likely that as they’ve changed the boards in the motor, they’ve made other changes at the same time on how things communicate and work together – possibly improving efficiency and communication protocols between battery management systems and the motor . So, they’ve changed the connectors so that only “compatible” items can be used with the “bes3” ? configuration. Presumably they looked at making things backwards compatible, but made the decision that it wouldn’t work, therefore, use different connections to avoid issues down the line. They might also be improved connections which are more weatherproof for instance.

    We’re still very much in a growing phase, you can’t keep making things backwards compatible because the technological changes don’t allow mowing forwards and legacy compatibility. Plus, the new controller obviously has star link satellite built into it ..

  37. [QUOTE=”Kilham5, post: 330917, member: 8412″]
    How is the old motor and system effectively obsolete?

    Just because it is not the latest model, and not upgradable to the latest model, that does not render it obsolete.
    My 2020 Gen4 will continue to work just the same as when I bought it, despite there being a newer model.
    Just the same as my Lyrik continues to function despite the introduction of a Zeb, and my 2020 Whyte works just the same despite the introduction of 2021 and 2022 models.
    [/QUOTE]

    Completely agree…..if I need more range I’d plumb for a spare battery
    rather than a new model. I bought the bike because it’s mechanically relatively simple to service and hopefully when or if I require attention to the motor after the warranty period has expired there will be independent establishments to carry out the work.

  38. [QUOTE=”Neeko DeVinchi, post: 330925, member: 14532″]
    Hold up, I’m confused!!

    This new system allows the firmware to be updated over the air and the wiring has been reworked. Plus the release of a 750wh battery and the scope to allow the motor perameters to be adjusted via the app.

    Doesn’t it stand to reason that Bosch will eventually release a firmware update to increase the maximum current flow from the battery, thereby increasing the newton meters of torque?
    [/QUOTE]
    More current …. more watts… more strain on motor parts. I cannot see manufacturers pushing the boundaries of motor performance by allowing updates on how many amps the Motor can and will draw.

  39. [QUOTE=”apac, post: 330936, member: 5445″]
    More current …. more watts… more strain on motor parts. I cannot see manufacturers pushing the boundaries of motor performance by allowing updates on how many amps the Motor can and will draw.
    [/QUOTE]
    You never know apac.

    If the EWS-E taught us one thing, it was that Bosch system seemed to have the advantage on the Power Stage.

  40. Interestingly enough, I’ve just heard that this new system will allow you to run either Shimano DI2 or Sram AXS.

    Are they suggesting that you can run either system without the batteries or will it just connect via ANT+?

  41. Interesting, but gone the opposite way I wanted really. I’m happy using Garmin stuff for ‘smarts’ and just want a minimalist controller like an EP8.

  42. Have to say very disappointed with the updates – yes the new systemis an improvement, but it’s like they totally ignore feedback from existing customers/reviews about giving an option for a minimalist controller.

    I really like the Bosch motor, and it’s EMTB mode is the best off the shelf software setting of any motor system IMO, but the user interface is so poor.
    How difficult can it be to just make a simple controller that isn’t a wart on the handle bars – the old remote was from the 80’s, the new one has bought it into the 90’s.

    I also think they have missed a massive trick by not making a version of the remote available that is retro compatible.

  43. [QUOTE=”Neeko DeVinchi, post: 330945, member: 14532″]
    Interestingly enough, I’ve just heard that this new system will allow you to run either Shimano DI2 or Sram AXS.

    Are they suggesting that you can run either system without the batteries or will it just connect via ANT+?
    [/QUOTE]
    You could run DI2 with the older Bosch systems, including GEN 3 and it would show the info on the display etc

  44. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 330845, member: 14174″]
    What the f*** is that ? ? Reminds me of a sound box I had on my bike as a child. I had police sirens, machine gun noises and motorbike engine sounds ??
    [/QUOTE]

    A Raleigh Vektar! One of my mates had one, and everyone was well jealous. It eventually got nicked from outside Asda along with my Raleigh Mag Styler!

    The Vektar was essentially a Raleigh Burner, with a motocross looking body kit – which housed some really cool (super shit nowadays) electronics. It’d play some weird noises, display your speed, and had a radio built in. If I remember right, it had a Grifter style hub gearbox too.

  45. Shimano 2022

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70313[/ATTACH]

    Specilized 2022

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70315[/ATTACH]
    Yamaha 2022

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70316[/ATTACH]

    Bosch 2022

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70317[/ATTACH]

  46. [QUOTE=”p3eps, post: 330954, member: 7193″]
    A Raleigh Vektar! One of my mates had one, and everyone was well jealous. It eventually got nicked from outside Asda along with my Raleigh Mag Styler!

    The Vektar was essentially a Raleigh Burner, with a motocross looking body kit – which housed some really cool (super shit nowadays) electronics. It’d play some weird noises, display your speed, and had a radio built in. If I remember right, it had a Grifter style hub gearbox too.
    [/QUOTE]
    Grifter gears… Blue, yellow, red…. usually stuck in red?

  47. Some of the features would be nice to have, namely finally being able to tailor the power modes, but the battery just being longer means bringing the centre of gravity further up along with adding extra weight. As it stands the 625 is fine for all my rides to date. I guess we’ll see how this develops and the equivalent to the orbea rise would be the logical replacement for me in the future. Not really too bothered about anything new as the bike does everything i want to date.

    Has anyone noticed how much of a £ premium the update is costing?

  48. [QUOTE=”apac, post: 330964, member: 5445″]
    Grifter gears… Blue, yellow, red…. usually stuck in red?
    [/QUOTE]
    meh, I had the chopper with crotch sniper gearchange!

  50. It does nothing to excite me ..I might have got a little bit enthused had it been backward compatible but as it isnt ..couldnt really give a toss..
    I will read the blurb in a ( good) few years time if & when I’m ready for a new bike ..

  51. I’d be lying if I said a bigger battery, new display wouldn’t be welcome, but I bought fully aware of the forthcoming upgrade and decided to buy anyway.

    These bikes will take a while to hit the shops and supply will still be an issue.

    If you wait for the upgrade on anything, you lose decent riding time in my opinion.

  52. i think it quite telling the difference between a sytem designed by an electronics/engineering company and by a dedicated bicycle components company.

    With Bosch it seems very much the design is based off “it’s a bicycle, has a handlebar so we just need to attach whatever we need to it” without considering how most riders set their controls up or how their control will play nicely with other components.

    With Shimano and Specilized they have really thought about how the controls would integrate with other components that mount to the bars, how the cabling would play nicely etc.

    for me this is exemplified by how the cable comes out of the new controller – pretty much every other brands control has the cable coming out on the underside of the bars, so it can be routed neatly with other cables etc and out the way.

    Bosch still have it coming out the end meaning it’s impossible to make it look tidy or route nicely.
    [ATTACH type=”full”]70320[/ATTACH]

  53. What about that new anti-theft feature? That could actually be useful. Is there any detailed information out about that?

  54. [QUOTE=”Olof Bike Adventures, post: 330986, member: 14147″]
    What about that new anti-theft feature?
    [/QUOTE]
    I wouldn’t call being pug-ugly an anti-theft “feature”, no matter how effective it is… :ROFLMAO:

  55. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 330985, member: 291″]
    i think it quite telling the difference between a sytem designed by an electronics/engineering company and by a dedicated bicycle components company.

    With Bosch it seems very much the design is based off “it’s a bicycle, has a handlebar so we just need to attach whatever we need to it” without considering how most riders set their controls up or how their control will play nicely with other components.

    With Shimano and Specilized they have really thought about how the controls would integrate with other components that mount to the bars, how the cabling would play nicely etc.

    for me this is exemplified by how the cable comes out of the new controller – pretty much every other brands control has the cable coming out on the underside of the bars, so it can be routed neatly with other cables etc and out the way.

    Bosch still have it coming out the end meaning it’s impossible to make it look tidy or route nicely.
    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”03EB5FD8-FCF0-4635-8A37-3A6145CB91D2.jpeg”]70320[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]

    I’m guessing this controller is more aimed at commuter and cargo bikes. There’s too many buttons. Five in total. EMTB’s only need two, plus & minus to change through the modes. I cant figure out what the left & right buttons would be for or the little one in the middle

  56. [QUOTE=”Olof Bike Adventures, post: 330986, member: 14147″]
    What about that new anti-theft feature? That could actually be useful. Is there any detailed information out about that?
    [/QUOTE]
    Bosch is creating the ConnectModule. It’s not ready yet, but they encourage the bike manufacturers to make room for it when they design their bikes. This unit enables you to trace the bike without a bluetooth connection for reporting position

  57. [QUOTE=”knut7, post: 330995, member: 281″]
    Bosch is creating the ConnectModule. It’s not ready yet, but they encourage the bike manufacturers to make room for it when they design their bikes. This unit enables you to trace the bike without a bluetooth connection for reporting position
    [/QUOTE]
    [ATTACH type=”full”]70322[/ATTACH]

  58. Bosch was focusing a lot on the future of mobility when they presented the Bosch Smart System. So it’s not primarily an emtb system. They talked about future possibilities, like exchanging data with driverless cars and such.

    If I had a -20/21 Bosch motor and wanted some kind of app support, Id check out the latest Nyon display. It seems much smaller than the old. I’m sure it’s expensive, but if the Smart System was backwards compatible, upgrading would probably cost quite a bit too.

  59. [QUOTE=”Waynemarlow, post: 330903, member: 7115″]
    Less heat loss due to the lower amps used, higher cadence levels without having to resort to computer optimisation ( meaning better range ) and a few other incrementals such as better use of the new higher density 21700 cells now available ( 39 cells v 60 18650 cells )

    Bafang now seem to be pushing the 48 volt route, Mahle is already 48 volts, will 2 years time be the big shift to a Bosch 48 volt motor ?
    [/QUOTE]

    new higher density 21700 cells now available ( 39 cells v 60 18650 cells )?
    from where you get that?

  60. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 330996, member: 291″]
    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”ADD812B0-5046-493C-A8DF-28C6E402A8B0.jpeg”]70322[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]
    So a “TCU” without lights …

    Yet …. it gives to possibility that it will/could have mode/power lights – like a Spesh TCU – which means there might be a handlebar controller due down the line without the unnecessary items like bow thruster control and quick dial.

  61. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 330994, member: 14174″]
    I’m guessing this controller is more aimed at commuter and cargo bikes. There’s too many buttons. Five in total. EMTB’s only need two, plus & minus to change through the modes. I cant figure out what the left & right buttons would be for or the little one in the middle
    [/QUOTE]

    Left & right buttons could be for indicator lights maybe (on commuter & cargo bikes)

  62. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 330948, member: 291″]
    Have to say very disappointed with the updates – yes the new systemis an improvement, but it’s like they totally ignore feedback from existing customers/reviews about giving an option for a minimalist controller.

    I really like the Bosch motor, and it’s EMTB mode is the best off the shelf software setting of any motor system IMO, but the user interface is so poor.
    How difficult can it be to just make a simple controller that isn’t a wart on the handle bars – the old remote was from the 80’s, the new one has bought it into the 90’s.

    I also think they have missed a massive trick by not making a version of the remote available that is retro compatible.
    [/QUOTE]
    Don’t disagree with most of this but it occurs Bosch are designing for use across different manufacturers & consequently there’s a one size fits all ethos. No idea if it’s the case but wouldn’t surprise me if the same company making one of the best drive units has enough about them to have thought about next gen AND ended up with this because reasons.

  63. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 331004, member: 14174″]
    Left & right buttons could be for indicator lights maybe (on commuter & cargo bikes)
    [/QUOTE]

    The little button will be for hazard lights ?

  64. We have a Bergamont E-Ville city bike in the family, which is an amazing ebike, definitely has the best integration and seamless performance of any ebike I have ridden, has DI2 Alfine gears fully integrated into the Bosch system, and you use every button on the controllers , and it all makes a lot more sense than how they work on an EMTB. I just think that it’s a real shame that they haven’t (as yet) produced something that is really sorted fro off road use.

    Shimano make multiple switch units all cross compatible across their systems, i just don’t get why Bosh can’t do the same.

  65. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 330992, member: 52″]
    I wouldn’t call being pug-ugly an anti-theft “feature”, no matter how effective it is… :ROFLMAO:
    [/QUOTE]

    I dunno, I haven’t been stolen yet… ?

  66. Just canceled my long awaited Orbea Wild FS order and have my name down for the 2022 Cube 140 HPC TM 750 29 due late October. Glad that my Wild didn’t come in as forecasted, the updated Bosch system is worth the added wait and cost.

  67. [QUOTE=”stratosa, post: 331002, member: 8930″]
    new higher density 21700 cells now available ( 39 cells v 60 18650 cells )?
    from where you get that?
    [/QUOTE]
    Look up Samsung 21700 50E and Samsung 18650 35E specs , 2 of probably the best batteries out there and then you maybe can work it out. Report back with your findings ?

  68. This is aimed at new emtb riders/ buyers. It is not worth upgrading from my 2020 gen 4 to this model with same power output.

  69. [QUOTE=”Zimmerframe, post: 331003, member: 4350″]
    So a “TCU” without lights …

    Yet …. it gives to possibility that it will/could have mode/power lights – like a Spesh TCU – which means there might be a handlebar controller due down the line without the unnecessary items like bow thruster control and quick dial.
    [/QUOTE]
    It seems as if the “+”-button doubles as light switch (image below).

    The left/right arrows are for swiping left or right on Tinder.
    [ATTACH type=”full” width=”472px”]70342[/ATTACH]

  70. [QUOTE=”aviserated, post: 331068, member: 19701″]
    This is aimed at new emtb riders/ buyers. It is not worth upgrading from my 2020 gen 4 to this model with same power output.
    [/QUOTE]
    I agree that the fact the motor is essentially unchanged makes upgrading less attractive to existing gen 4 owners. I’m not sure if I would bother with customizing the modes either, for myself I find EMTB perfect right out of the box. I would however love to be able to update the firmware myself, and I think this is something Bosch could have made available for the existing Kiox with a simple software update.

  71. [QUOTE=”Philly G, post: 331076, member: 10617″]
    I would however love to be able to update the firmware myself, and I think this is something Bosch could have made available for the existing Kiox with a simple software update.
    [/QUOTE]

    What if it was mandatory to change all electronics in the drive unit to make the over-the-air updating possible?

    I don’t know what problems I would currently solve on my Bosch CX 4 by updating the firmware. There has been no real changes in the last two-three updates.

  72. As I’ve just bought a new Trek Rail my first reaction when Rob posted this up was ‘bloody hell’. Now having thought it through and seen what it all means and what the reaction has been I’m not at all bothered.

    Bigger battery is too heavy – I’m happy with 625, esp compared to the 378 I had on my old Focus Jam2. If I get a new bike in the future I want it to be lighter not heavier.

    Controller – looks like something out of Star Trek. No thanks.

    Kiox display – looks like the old one. I quite like the Kiox on my Rail as I like having all the info tho I appreciate not for everyone.

    App – this is useful for tweaking, but tbo I’m quite happy with emtb mode and I don’t feel a desperate need to change anything.

  73. It’s difficult to say how much heavier the 750Wh battery really is. Unless I’m mistaken, the frame lock mechanism is integrated in the battery. Or possibly just parts of the mechanism. That means fewer parts in the frame and reduced weight. But the Powertube 750 will of course be at least 500 grams heavier due to more cells.

  74. The 750 is 900g more than the 625. The 625 is 3.3kg, so the 750 comes in about 4.2kg give or take.

    Same as Bbear. While the Purion is a wart. Otoh when I ride, I’m focused on where I’m going, what the bike is doing beneath me & all the rest of it. Also never felt the need to customise the modes, EMTB is decent off the shelf & mixing tour & EMTB, my 25kg push iron with a 625 is good for 50 miles, more than enough for a big day out. Nice things are nice to have but for me this solves a problem I don’t really have.

  76. [QUOTE=”Hamina, post: 331096, member: 8541″]
    There has been no real changes in the last two-three updates.
    [/QUOTE]
    Err, Tour+???

  78. I’ve never been bothered by the purion display tbh but I wouldve loved the ability to customise the power modes. Seems theres a few things that can be tampered with and not just how much power each mode has.

  79. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 331113, member: 52″]
    How much does the Spesh 700Wh weigh?
    [/QUOTE]
    3840g

  80. From post #37 again :

    500wh Battery : 349mm – 2.9 kg
    625wh Battery : + 125wh + 67 mm + 600g
    750wh Battery : + 125wh + 68 mm + 900g !

  81. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 331109, member: 1″]
    The 750 battery is 4.4KG

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”F125E709-F27B-4814-A870-309435D9AD61.jpeg”]70364[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]

    That’s some weight gain on the battery. Although looking online ‘claimed weight’ for the 2021 Cube 160 HPC Action Team Spec bike

    625wh – 24.1kg
    750wh – 24.3kg

    So that gain has been offset a fair bit. Mainly down to the fixed battery but guessing elsewhere too.

    How that weight is placed and handles time will tell, but that extra battery and 200g of weight will surely see a range improvement on what is already a very efficient system from what i’ve seen.

  82. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 331116, member: 1″]
    3840g
    [/QUOTE]
    And for reference, the Spesh 500wh weighs 3135g.

    So in terms of comparison :

    Bosch 500wh – 2.9kg’s , Spesh 500wh 3.135kg’s

    Spesh 700wh : 3.840kg.

    Bosch 625wh : 3.5kg’s
    Bosch 750wh : 4.4 kg’s.

    The Spesh 500wh uses 18650 cells. The 700wh uses 21700 cells. If the 700wh used the same cells as the 500wh then proportionally, it would be about 4.4kg’s. Likewise, if Spesh made a 21700 cell 500wh battery, it should be about 2.75kg’s instead of the 18650’s 3135g – but they don’t.

  83. [QUOTE=”Hamina, post: 331096, member: 8541″]
    What if it was mandatory to change all electronics in the drive unit to make the over-the-air updating possible?

    I don’t know what problems I would currently solve on my Bosch CX 4 by updating the firmware. There has been no real changes in the last two-three updates.
    [/QUOTE]
    I was meaning version updates, and the new modes like Emtb Lite, Tour+…it would be great to be able to experiment with these without having to take the bike into the shop, as well as being able to change wheel size, crank length etc yourself

  84. Yeah, I didn’t intend to ask about the weight of the 750 🙂 The point was the weight isn’t comparable. To my understanding, components for the lock mechanism has been moved from the frame to the battery. This makes the frame lighter and the battery heavier. So the net weight increase should be way less than 900g.

  85. [QUOTE=”knut7, post: 331129, member: 281″]
    Yeah, I didn’t intend to ask about the weight of the 750 🙂 The point was the weight isn’t comparable. To my understanding, components for the lock mechanism has been moved from the frame to the battery. This makes the frame lighter and the frame heavier. So the net weight increase should be way less than 900g.
    [/QUOTE]

    200g looking at the Cube as an example ?

  86. [QUOTE=”sunstoner, post: 331138, member: 11371″]
    Sounds a good move does this. Yamaha dont appear to be sitting still atm.
    [/QUOTE]

    It’d be great if Kawasaki, Honda & Suzuki started making e-motors too and the Japanese manufacturers made some emtb’s. Partnered with Shimano components. Maybe in 5-10 years they will, time will tell

  87. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 331148, member: 14174″]
    It’d be great if Kawasaki, Honda & Suzuki started making e-motors too and the Japanese manufacturers made some emtb’s. Partnered with Shimano components. Maybe in 5-10 years they will, time will tell
    [/QUOTE]

    I suppose if motorbikes are going to be all electrified up at somepoint then possibly Honda, Kawasaki et al might reach a little further into emtbs as theyd already have a similar(ish) tech on their mainstream bikes right!?

  88. It could be be possible that by fully redesigning the whole system it’s now possible to introduce new controllers in the future.

  89. [QUOTE=”sunstoner, post: 331161, member: 11371″]
    I suppose if motorbikes are going to be all electrified up at somepoint then possibly Honda, Kawasaki et al might reach a little further into emtbs as theyd already have a similar(ish) tech on their mainstream bikes right!?
    [/QUOTE]

    No idea, I just thought a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-EMTB would be cool as f*** ?

  90. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 331170, member: 14174″]
    No idea, I just thought a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-EMTB would be cool as f*** ?
    [/QUOTE]
    We’re getting a bit off topic at the moment ???

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70375[/ATTACH]

  91. One look at that controller and I already know that I will not have a Bosch powered bike for my next one.
    [ATTACH type=”full”]70376[/ATTACH]
    That is the crappy controller on the G4 KIOX and it is forking less than useless when compared to other current offerings.
    Don’t mind the KIOX display too much, but that controller is SHITE.

  92. [QUOTE=”Rusty, post: 331178, member: 4931″]
    One look at that controller and I already know that I will not have a Bosch powered bike for my next one.
    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”1630491565897.png”]70376[/ATTACH]
    That is the crappy controller on the G4 KIOX and it is forking less than useless when compared to other current offerings.
    Don’t mind the KIOX display too much, but that controller is SHITE.
    [/QUOTE]
    You don’t like it then ??

    Lets be glad Who ever does “Controls” at Bosch Bikes, doesn’t make gear systems. Imagine the Bosch 12 Speed – you’d just have 12 levers hanging off the bars to select the gear you want. Except they wouldn’t move very nicely and they’d all have a flush smooth finish so you’d have no idea which lever you had your finger on. They might combine it with an enormous Gear Display screen, which just shows a horizontal bar rather than the gear number.

  93. [QUOTE=”Zimmerframe, post: 331176, member: 4350″]
    We’re getting a bit off topic at the moment ???
    [/QUOTE]

    We are, but it’s kind of related. It’s all about brand association and the expertise and experience of those brands.

    When I think about Bosch, I think of washing machines, drills & lawnmowers, not EMTB’s

    Yamaha however have a long history of designing engines, frames & suspension systems so they are the only motor manufacture (perhaps Shimano too) that I immediately associate the brand with bikes. Makes sense for the other Japanese manufactures to jump on the emtb bandwagon. The Japanese brands are highly competitive with each other and therefore always pushing for innovation, have strict quality control, can mass manufacture to bring prices down, and could easily dominate the e-bike market if they decide to dip their toes into the market

  94. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 331184, member: 14174″]
    When I think about Bosch, I think of washing machines, drills & lawnmowers, not EMTB’s
    [/QUOTE]
    I guess that’s all just based on consumer perspective though. Where as Bosch are a huge automotive supplier (60%) and many other things. Obviously best known globally for making the most horrible switches and displays for ebikes.

    Kawasaki are Kawasaki heavy industries who make massive ships, planes, defense equipment and dabble in engines and motorcycles.

    Honda were primarily motorcycle, then car and now do robots and jets – Honda would be the interesting one if they did make an EMTB from the ground up especially after they stunning DH bike.

    Like many of these things they get convoluted. Yamaha motorcycles is a separate company from Yamaha. Not sure which part makes their bike motors and bikes though. They’re the worlds largest producer of Pianos. But make all sorts of music equipment, jet ski’s, golf buggies, skow mobiles, out board motors, robotics and so on.

  96. [QUOTE=”Zimmerframe, post: 331117, member: 4350″]
    From post #37 again :

    500wh Battery : 349mm – 2.9 kg
    625wh Battery : + 125wh + 67 mm + 600g
    750wh Battery : + 125wh + 68 mm + 900g !
    [/QUOTE]
    so it’s 49cm, at least 13cm less longer that 700WH specy one. maybe if you are fit you can carry one on your backpack:-)

  97. I would like to see a lighter system and bike with a kind off 500wh battery. Domage Bosch only went for upgrading with heavier battery.

  98. [QUOTE=”Jimbo Vills, post: 331130, member: 9642″]
    200g looking at the Cube as an example ?
    [/QUOTE]
    I think the weight of the Cube is pretty interesting, as its a good KG lighter than the other bikes we have seen released with the 750, and doesn’t exactly have light components on it, and historically Cubes have been pretty heavy despite the carbon main frame, often as heavy as alloy alternatives.

  99. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 331287, member: 291″]
    I think the weight of the Cube is pretty interesting, as its a good KG lighter than the other bikes we have seen released with the 750, and doesn’t exactly have light components on it, and historically Cubes have been pretty heavy despite the carbon main frame, often as heavy as alloy alternatives.
    [/QUOTE]
    As you probably already know, marketing material and real world numbers often differ. Maybe this is the case here?

  100. [QUOTE=”Olof Bike Adventures, post: 331304, member: 14147″]
    As you probably already know, marketing material and real world numbers often differ. Maybe this is the case here?
    [/QUOTE]
    Cube said in their press live video they were able to shave off the equivalent weight in the 2022 frames so the 2022 total bike weight was near identical.

  101. Looks like Haibike are now 150KG system weight, so no doubt chunkier frame and components but heavier bike weights.

  102. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 331308, member: 1″]
    Cube said in their press live video they were able to shave off the equivalent weight in the 2022 frames so the 2022 total bike weight was near identical.
    [/QUOTE]
    That’s a lot of shaving! But sure, I guess that is part of the explanation.

  103. [QUOTE=”Zimmerframe, post: 331190, member: 4350″]I guess that’s all just based on consumer perspective though. Where as Bosch are a huge automotive supplier (60%) and many other things. Obviously best known globally for making the most horrible switches and displays for ebikes.[/quote]
    Starter motors, alternators etc are a big market for them. They need to have a bike manufacturer take ownership and do software and astetics development – like Spesh with Brose.

    [QUOTE]Kawasaki are Kawasaki heavy industries who make massive ships, planes, defense equipment and dabble in engines and motorcycles.[/QUOTE]
    Ddidn’t I see a move about them? Planes, Trains & Automobiles 😉

    [QUOTE]Honda were primarily motorcycle, then car and now do robots and jets – Honda would be the interesting one if they did make an EMTB from the ground up especially after they stunning DH bike.[/QUOTE]
    Oh hell – YES PLEASE. Got to freewheel Gregs RN-01 down a gentle hill when he was over here for the WC. Honda would do a brilliant job I expect.

    [QUOTE]Like many of these things they get convoluted. Yamaha motorcycles is a separate company from Yamaha. Not sure which part makes their bike motors and bikes though. They’re the worlds largest producer of Pianos. But make all sorts of music equipment, jet ski’s, golf buggies, skow mobiles, out board motors, robotics and so on.
    [/QUOTE]
    The Yamaha YDX Moro was done by Yamaha Motor Corporation USA as an inhouse project.
    I don’t like the split frame design but I guess someoene will come up with a frame cover.

  104. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 331004, member: 14174″]
    Left & right buttons could be for indicator lights maybe (on commuter & cargo bikes)
    [/QUOTE]
    The Kiox needs at least five assuming they’re keeping the general UI design (cardinal directions plus a confirmation button). I’m sure that’s driving the controller design.

    So for folks who run without the Kiox I suspect it will be a bit like so:

    [ATTACH type=”full” width=”456px”]70447[/ATTACH]

  105. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 331184, member: 14174″]
    When I think about Bosch, I think of washing machines, drills & lawnmowers, not EMTB’s
    [/QUOTE]

    what do all those Bosch products have in common?….they all have electric motors!

  106. I wonder if they will use the same architecture on commuter side like replacing the 3rd generation CX and other. I guess it would be a bit surprising if the 4th generation CX would be the only one model.

    One thing that’s interesting that if you can connect a HRM-belt then there could be theoretically a technical option to connect the drive unit through ANT+ or Bluetooth to a bike computer?

    I guess it depends a little on the fact that if Bosch wants to keep it’s ecosystem closed or not. Specialized is up to something as they redesigned/defined the interface how external apps connect (like blevo)

    It would make sense to be able to use same Garmin/Wahoo/younameit computer on different bikes.

  107. It is possible to upgrade old CX gen4 motor to the new one? Will be all mount points the same?
    I know, the battery size is different. It’s bad question.

  108. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 331116, member: 1″]
    3840g
    [/QUOTE]
    [ATTACH type=”full”]70688[/ATTACH]
    Mine must be muddy.

  109. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 330804, member: 1″]
    Bosch eBike Systems unveils new smart system and vision for e-mobility

    [MEDIA=youtube]6lVnKRA2-8c[/MEDIA]

    [B]Headlines:[/B]
    [LIST]
    [*]New 750Wh battery
    [*]New Kiox 300 Display
    [*]New Handle Remote Controller
    [*]New App to allow custom modes based on rider requirements
    [*]None of this is backwards compatible, its an all new system with new connectors
    [/LIST]

    • The new smart system combines digital developments and significant hardware upgrades to further enhance the eBike riding experience.
    • Bosch introduces a new large capacity battery, LED control unit and streamlined Kiox display.
    • The new Flow App allows for unparalleled customisation of the riding experience and game-changing over-the-air updates.
    [/QUOTE]
    Is it going to be integrated to Trek W-bikes?

  110. [QUOTE=”Tubby G, post: 330843, member: 14174″]
    True. I’m sure they could have designed backwards compatibility though and made the decision not to

    Thinking about it, if current Bosch motors were capable of customising the power modes, all I’d do is increase the power on all modes and as result decrease overall range, so sometimes less is more!
    [/QUOTE]
    Bosch motors have always had customisable power levels, right back to the Gen 2 but they never shouted about it so not many realised it was possible! You did need the Nyon controller to do this and the customisable power levels only worked to 15mph so no good if you were running a dongle.

  111. [QUOTE=”Eduardoramundo, post: 332119, member: 5304″]
    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”9381273F-AFCF-48C8-B9A0-08277F2D8F13.jpeg”]70688[/ATTACH]
    Mine must be muddy.
    [/QUOTE]

    11g and yes it is…..

  112. [QUOTE=”Eduardoramundo, post: 332119, member: 5304″]
    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”9381273F-AFCF-48C8-B9A0-08277F2D8F13.jpeg”]70688[/ATTACH]
    Mine must be muddy.
    [/QUOTE]

    yes it is….

    prob explains the 11 gram difference ?

  113. Just put down an order for my first eMTB, the Cube Stereo Hybrid 140 HPC Actionteam 750 29″, with the new Bosch system. Expecting it to arrive 03/22. Did a lot of research before I put down the payment at my LBS, coming from a Yeti SB130 it was a bit difficult not to wait on their release, but with rumors of €10-12k+ I thought is was a nobrainer to go with the Cube and all that high end spec. and the redesigned frame that looks tits ! (€6700 where I live w/15% pre-order discount)

    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://www.cube.eu/en/2022/e-bikes/mountainbike/fullsuspension/stereo-hybrid-140/cube-stereo-hybrid-140-hpc-actionteam-29-actionteam/[/URL]

  114. beter pic of the LED remote and how it sits on the bars

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”Screenshot 2021-09-04 at 09.53.03.png”]70736[/ATTACH]

  115. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 332207, member: 291″]
    beter pic of the LED remote and ho wit sits on the bars

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”Screenshot 2021-09-04 at 09.53.03.png”]70736[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]

    I just see this ..

    [ATTACH type=”full”]70737[/ATTACH]

  116. [QUOTE=”Welh, post: 330858, member: 18143″]
    What would be the benefit if the battery is 48V?
    [/QUOTE]

    Faster charging. Charging rate is limited by current. By going higher Voltage you can pump in more energy per minute at same current.

  117. [QUOTE=”remosito, post: 332649, member: 11864″]
    Faster charging. Charging rate is limited by current. By going higher Voltage you can pump in more energy per minute at same current.
    [/QUOTE]

    Charge current is limited by the cells themselves and/or BMS/charging system. It’s irrelevant how many cells are connected in series (voltage).

    EG a cell rated at a max charge rate of 5A can’t take more just because it’s connected in series with others to create more volts. The current would still have to remain at 5A, although the charger would simply do it at a higher voltage.

  118. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 332207, member: 291″]
    beter pic of the LED remote and how it sits on the bars

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”Screenshot 2021-09-04 at 09.53.03.png”]70736[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]

    Geez thought the old one was bad enough, does anyone in the design department at Bosch actually ride emtb’s

  119. [QUOTE=”cemoz, post: 332958, member: 10885″]
    Geez thought the old one was bad enough, is anyone in the design department at Bosch actually able to see???
    [/QUOTE]
    FTFY

    Has Stevie Wonder joined the design team?

  120. How can they get the controller so wrong!?

    I think theyve got the motor and batteries bang on right, and overall are probably the best motor/battery combination, but the controller/displays just ruin it. MtBers buy the system despite the controller/displays.

    All they need to do is look at what other manufacturers are doing…….

  121. [QUOTE=”Mteam, post: 333029, member: 11387″]
    How can they get the controller so wrong!?
    [/QUOTE]

    Agreed, I prefer my ‘archaic’ Purion which has speed, distance, battery level, buttons etc all on one small screen. The only thing of any worth to me on the new system is the handy extra 125Wh but even then at a nearly 1kg consequence it’s a debatable point given the weight of the bike as it is!

  122. IMHO, the idea of the switchgear is good, but the design looks quite awful. I like the idea of being able to use it without the display unit, and the fact that it gives more information than say the little Shimano unit. I wish it was smaller.

  123. What should have to be changed on kiox/nyon21 to allow updating the motor unit firmware?
    And what should have to be changed on kiox to allow user settings the power curves or at least some kind of a constant for multiplying the total motor support? (That allows a finer power reduction by user for longer battery life)

  124. [QUOTE=”Planemo, post: 332704, member: 16344″]
    Charge current is limited by the cells themselves and/or BMS/charging system. It’s irrelevant how many cells are connected in series (voltage).

    EG a cell rated at a max charge rate of 5A can’t take more just because it’s connected in series with others to create more volts. The current would still have to remain at 5A, although the charger would simply do it at a higher voltage.
    [/QUOTE]
    Correct but if you have 13 cells in series all charging at x number of Watts, then it’s only reasonable to assume 10 cells at X Watts is going to take longer to charge a pack to 720 Wh’s than the 13 cells.

  125. [QUOTE=”Waynemarlow, post: 333066, member: 7115″]
    Correct but if you have 13 cells in series all charging at x number of Watts, then it’s only reasonable to assume 10 cells at X Watts is going to take longer to charge a pack to 720 Wh’s than the 13 cells.
    [/QUOTE]

    Totally lost me there.

    The only way you can charge faster is to use more current. The original post suggested that a higher voltage battery can be charged faster.

    The current limit is based on what the cells themselves can take. How many cells you have in series (the voltage) is irrelevant in terms of the max current you are able to use.

    You can’t charge a higher voltage pack faster unless A: the cells are rated to take a higher charge current than the previous cells used or B: the charger manufacturer chooses to push the current output closer to the max cell rating (which many chargers don’t). Either way, it’s nothing to do with voltage.

  126. Randomly I bumped into a test team from another manufacturer whilst out in the Surrey Alps this morning.

    They where of the opinion that the updated Bosch ecosystem is very much geared towards the commuter/cargo bike market and was designed with that in mind first and foremost, but that since the brands that use the Bosch system are desperate for bigger batteries (in their opinion the battery capacity arms race is far more important to generating sales than lighter more minimal systems) they dont have much option but to sling it in the bikes.

    They couldn’t believe that Bosch wasn’t working on something more minimalist in terms of controls though, as their market feedback is that the two most requested things are bigger batteries, and for EMTB’s to look as much like a normal bike as possible, with minimal clutter.

    Having said that we did have a bit of a laugh, as its really only a small percentage of geeks like us on Forums who get wound up about these things, and most people buying ebikes couldn’t give a sh!t 😎 and Bosch probably realise this. They also agreed that the bikes ride much better with smaller batteries, but that the market wants as big as possible.

  127. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 333086, member: 291″]
    Randomly I bumped into a test team from another manufacturer whilst out in the Surrey Alps this morning.

    They where of the opinion that the updated Bosch ecosystem is very much geared towards the commuter/cargo bike market and was designed with that in mind first and foremost, but that since the brands that use the Bosch system are desperate for bigger batteries (in their opinion the battery capacity arms race is far more important to generating sales than lighter more minimal systems) they dont have much option but to sling it in the bikes.

    They couldn’t believe that Bosch wasn’t working on something more minimalist in terms of controls though, as their market feedback is that the two most requested things are bigger batteries, and for EMTB’s to look as much like a normal bike as possible, with minimal clutter.

    Having said that we did have a bit of a laugh, as its really only a small percentage of geeks like us on Forums who get wound up about these things, and most people buying ebikes couldn’t give a sh!t 😎 and Bosch probably realise this. They also agreed that the bikes ride much better with smaller batteries, but that the market wants as big as possible.
    [/QUOTE]
    what were they testing ????????

  129. 4A on 36V is not 4A on 48V. The 4A charger for 48V needs more power and can produce more heat with equal effectivity as the 36V charger. But its not mind.

  130. [QUOTE=”PetrD, post: 333222, member: 11245″]
    4A on 36V is not 4A on 48V. The 4A charger for 48V needs more power and can produce more heat with equal effectivity as the 36V charger. But its not mind.
    [/QUOTE]
    It’s all a bit academic chaps, we all plug our bikes in and when the green light comes on, we ride. Whether it takes 3 hours or 4 is almost never a problem.

  131. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 333086, member: 291″]
    Randomly I bumped into a test team from another manufacturer whilst out in the Surrey Alps this morning.

    They also agreed that the bikes ride much better with smaller batteries, but that the market wants as big as possible.
    [/QUOTE]

    It’s not unlike ‘performance’ cars; everybody admits to enjoying a lighter car more, but then they go and buy some bloated, numb, ill-handling dogpile because it has a bigger number in the ‘power output’ box.

    Audi RS# are prime examples.

  132. I think its horse for courses – to follow your analogy, I once had an RS4, about 15 years ago, and the reason I got it was I wanted a fast car, but also wanted to be able to nail it down to the alps with a full load of bikes/snowboards etc, and it was the best option at the time.

    In an ideal world you would have a little ripper of a bike, and something for longer trips, but at current prices the luxury of owning 2 EMTB’s isn’t viable for most people.

  133. Does anybody know if production of the current spec stuff is going to end with this update?

    So will any bike company selling Bosch powered bikes either have to stop production or change their bikes to suit the new battery dimensions if the current product is ending?

  134. Sorry, but no one feels the need to have a smaller handlebar control? The new KIOX is hugly, bulky and redundant in features. A huge disappointment for someone like me who loves a minimalist setup and little exposed to breakage in the event of a fall.

  135. [QUOTE=”Gianni, post: 335014, member: 12375″]
    Sorry, but no one feels the need to have a smaller handlebar control?
    [/QUOTE]
    Agree, people complained about the Purion, which I don’t mind that much, but with this latest system Bosch have gone backwards rather than forwards, the new controls are even worse

  137. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 335076, member: 291″]
    This picture made me chuckle of the new 2022 Mondrakers cockpit – anyone see the hack I see ?

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”B5013B89-4E66-47F0-B975-104DD2B7B0AD.jpeg”]71525[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]
    The Shimano cable tidy ?

  139. I still don’t understand why one of the big players hasn’t made a wireless controller yet. Sram do it with AXS and it’s super reliable and lasts two years. I’d love to get rid of that cable.

    No Shimano rubber bands required….

    Gordon

  140. E=”Gianni, post: 335014, member: 12375″]
    Sorry, but no one feels the need to have a smaller handlebar control? The new KIOX is hugly, bulky and redundant in features. A huge disappointment for someone like me who loves a minimalist setup and little exposed to breakage in the event of a fall.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. How are you expected to hit the buttons you want on rough terrain or with gloves on? Be like trying to use a Casio calculator watch. ?

  141. Bosch mention that the 2022 CX is a new drive unit but with identical performance.

    Interested to test and see if there’s less internal motor rattle. It’s noticeable going to the silent Levo to the current Rail with the Bosch motor rattling on chunky stuff.

  142. [QUOTE=”Zimmerframe, post: 408891, member: 4350″]
    They’re finally expanding the Smart System :

    [URL unfurl=”true”]https://ebike-mtb.com/en/bosch-product-news-2023/[/URL]

    Now including the 500wh and 625wh batteries.

    A new System controller (top tube) with buttons to change support mode :

    [ATTACH=full]92815[/ATTACH]

    and finally .. just for [USER=1]@Rob Rides EMTB[/USER] a mini remote !!!

    [ATTACH=full]92816[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]
    The dream!!

    Unfortunately you can’t install the mini remote on any of the current systems – it needs that top tube thingy, that contains all the electronics stuff that the mini remote connects too 😭😭😭

  143. [QUOTE=”JFDI, post: 408901, member: 15649″]
    🤔 if only they could supply a ‘top tube thingy’ that could directly swap with the current kiox controller..?
    [/QUOTE]

    Top Tube Thingy™ also requires a relevant hole in top tube to house it.

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”4F7DEAE0-5A15-4F38-9FED-8AA15F799F61.jpeg”]92825[/ATTACH]

    I heard a rumour Bosch will sell it as all as a self-install kit, including this handy tool:

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”406A4416-31EF-4F85-86A3-A266D6156287.jpeg”]92826[/ATTACH]

  145. It has occured to dremel a nice hole in my top tube & glue the Kiox in there. I accept this could be problematic a few ways.

  146. I’m sure it would be easy to make a little housing for the thingy.

    Maybe call it a ‘Thousing’?

  147. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 408892, member: 1″]
    The dream!!

    Unfortunately you can’t install the mini remote on any of the current systems – it needs that top tube thingy, that contains all the electronics stuff that the mini remote connects too 😭😭😭
    [/QUOTE]
    I like what bikes will receive the new system any news on that yet and when.

  148. FFS! I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising by now that they finally make a mini remote, and it’s backwards compatible with absolutely nothing.

  149. Whoever heads up the design and integration department at Bosch needs sacking – every time they “improve” something it’s not backwards comparable with essentially the identical system save software.

    how hard is it to make a controller you just plug in? Shimano have about 5 handlebar controllers you can choose from that are just plug and play!

    still I would now consider a Bosch bike for the first time if it came with that controller.

  150. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 409052, member: 291″]
    Whoever heads up the design and integration department at Bosch needs sacking – every time they “improve” something it’s not backwards comparable with essentially the identical system save software.

    how hard is it to make a controller you just plug in? Shimano have about 5 handlebar controllers you can choose from that are just plug and play!

    still I would now consider a Bosch bike for the first time if it came with that controller.
    [/QUOTE]

    Couldn’t agree more. I have Bosch Purion and alI I really want is a small display near the centre of my bars connected to the below remote. Have a Garmin Montana 600 with full 1:25K mapping – don’t want the other stuff.

    In fact, if the below remote could be connected/grafted onto the existing Purion display that would be fine.
    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”20220721_204817.jpg”]92879[/ATTACH]

  152. So if you want a very small handlebar mode controller and a Spesh TCU type top tube display there is the Giant Trance X E Advanced.
    Be careful what you wish for however. the specialized version of a top tube display…the Turbo Connect Unit ( TCU) was vulnerable to water ingress……..the top tube is after all not sealed from the headtube and all the important control electronics are in an enclosed and confined space within the top tube. I would not want another bike with that system.
    Bosch changed the entire platform with the Bosch Smart System in order to enable all of the planned future software developments. The LED Remote contains all of the intelligence so can be the only device on the bike…ie no display, and some riders ( me included) prefer that. Whyte is one brand that has chosen that route. A Kiox 300 can be added as standard by the bike brand or added subsequently by a user if a display is wanted………..or you can also just use a smartphone.
    I understand it is annoying the Bosch Smart System has no backward compatibility but the future software/rider interface developments planned could not be achieved without stanting with a new platform and architecture.

  154. It’s interesting the different manufacturer’s approach to where the “brain” is located within the system Architechture .

    I still think Shimano have the best control ecosystem and options of tailoring cockpit/display set up to how you want it.

  155. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 409410, member: 291″]
    It’s interesting the different manufacturer’s approach to where the “brain” is located within the system Architechture .

    I still think Shimano have the best control ecosystem and options of tailoring cockpit/display set up to how you want it.
    [/QUOTE]
    It appears that in most of the systems the motor, battery, display and control buttons are all nodes on the bus.

    It makes sense the way that Bosch have gone, and the lack of backwards compatibility with the older Gen-4 is understandable given the system architecture. At least the new bits are compatible with the Smart system so we can get rid of the ‘Cuttle-fish’ remote. What doesn’t make sense is that they didn’t develop the MTB-suitable parts first, since that’s what they sell the most of.

  156. The new Smart range is not backwards compatible, so unless you’ve currently got a bike with a 750Wh battery none of this new stuff will work.

  157. [QUOTE=”Doomanic, post: 409453, member: 52″]
    The new Smart range is not backwards compatible, so unless you’ve currently got a bike with a 750Wh battery none of this new stuff will work.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yep, just bought one last week – it’s currently getting the frame protection fitted before I pick it up 😀

  158. [QUOTE=”Bummers, post: 409443, member: 23310″]
    So is that saying if you’ve got the kiox 300 (latest) smart system that you can replace the existing bulky controller with the new small one?
    [/QUOTE]
    technically yes, but where are you going to put Top Tube Thingy? This is what the mini remote connects to. It requires a frame cutout.

    Bosch weren’t quite giving all the info in the email above when they said it’d work with a Kiox 300 system as the Thingy is a prerequisite for the mini controller.

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”804A1E44-8B7F-4170-8A94-F202AC14E10C.jpeg”]92997[/ATTACH]

  159. [QUOTE=”R120, post: 409410, member: 291″]
    It’s interesting the different manufacturer’s approach to where the “brain” is located within the system Architechture .

    I still think Shimano have the best control ecosystem and options of tailoring cockpit/display set up to how you want it.
    [/QUOTE]
    . Most of these bikes use a CAN network which means distributed processing but placing more functionality in one device on the CAN does reduce the number of devices connected

  160. [QUOTE=”Rob Rides EMTB, post: 409462, member: 1″]
    technically yes, but where are you going to put Top Tube Thingy? This is what the mini remote connects to. It requires a frame cutout.

    Bosch weren’t quite giving all the info in the email above when they said it’d work with a Kiox 300 system as the Thingy is a prerequisite for the mini controller.

    [ATTACH type=”full” alt=”804A1E44-8B7F-4170-8A94-F202AC14E10C.jpeg”]92997[/ATTACH]
    [/QUOTE]

    Ah crap, I didn’t realise that bit. Thought it might be a direct replacement. Being able to use the kiox display and the minimalist controller would have been my ideal choice.

  161. Seems like a fairly straight forward solution that bosch could develop… It doesnt need to be wireless, just to take the same cable as the current chunky remote. Surely it can’t be that hard?!

  162. In the two years I have had my gen4 kiox equipped bike I have broken one controller. It’s been tapped onto the bars for over a year now with no further problems. But in that time I have also broken two brake levers and an xo shifter so although i don’t much like the controller it works well enough and is no more problematic than the other control mechanisms on the bike

  163. Has anyone come across a fault where it won’t turn on? Mine lasted a mile and half, turned itself off and won’t turn on again.

  164. well i was in a local ebike shop a few months ago and they said they had a batch of bosch smart motors with damaged wiring and the hole lot had to be changed.

    id take it back to the dealer to sort it out as could just be a squashed outer cable ect

  165. [QUOTE=”Bomble, post: 410288, member: 1765″]
    Has anyone come across a fault where it won’t turn on? Mine lasted a mile and half, turned itself off and won’t turn on again.
    [/QUOTE]
    What will not switch on? What bike….what system components?

  166. So glad I just forked out to get my Soviet era styled Purion controller, that came standard on my Sam2, over to a Kiox display and controller.
    I thought that it was a much better and minimalist compared to the Purion.
    Now they have bought out the mini which is light years ahead again. After having come from a Shimano controller, I would have jumped at purchasing the smaller version if it was compatible.
    Alas not to be and as someone has already mentioned, the smaller controller on a cable that could be plug into the Kiox or Kiox 300 would have been fantastic and I would think a financial success for Bosch.

  167. [QUOTE=”Husky430, post: 410295, member: 4782″]
    So glad I just forked out to get my Soviet era styled Purion controller, that came standard on my Sam2, over to a Kiox display and controller.
    I thought that it was a much better and minimalist compared to the Purion.
    Now they have bought out the mini which is light years ahead again. After having come from a Shimano controller, I would have jumped at purchasing the smaller version if it was compatible.
    Alas not to be and as someone has already mentioned, the smaller controller on a cable that could be plug into the Kiox or Kiox 300 would have been fantastic and I would think a financial success for Bosch.
    [/QUOTE]
    With progress so fast on ebikes there’s not a lot of incentive to work on old kit, even simple controllers will require more development time.

    99% of product dev / software bandwidth will likely be spend on current and future roadmap kit. 1% reserved for legacy stuff and even then only really for safety aspects.

    It’s an absolute arms race at the moment and companies are not hanging about!

  168. A few things I have learned a bout the Bosch Smart System…….
    The 750 battery is not a necessity. You can also use a 625 or 500 battery.
    With the previous generation Bosch system using the Purion, the Purion was powered by 2 button batteries ( 2016 batteries) which are user replaceable. In effect those batteries do very little since as soon as the system is powered up by pressing the power on button on the Purion, the main bike battery then powers the Purion. With the LED Remote on the Bosch Smart System there is a ( supposedly) non replaceable 3.7v Lithium battery which is chargeable. That battery enables the LED Remote to switch on the system ( effectively switching on the main bike battery). The LED Remote battery is not capable of supporting all the LEDs etc for very long however and I am not totally sure which of 2 possible scenarios then occurs. One scenario is that the LED Remote battery is the only power source but is constantly being charged by the main battery whilst the bike is being ridden…..ie current is being drawn from the battery by the motor. The other ( in my opinion less likely ) scenario is that, like the Purion, the LED Remote is powered by the motor once the system has been switched on.
    Earlier I said the LED Remote battery was “supposedly” not user replaceable. Well you can buy the battery for c £7 and it fixes to the underneath of the LED Remote with a small star screw. It is rectangular in shape and has a 3 wire tail and connector plug suggesting it does a little more than delivering or accepting a pos and neg feed………the 3rd wire presumably being a signal wire.
    A small remote would have no battery and no processor chip so would need to consist merely gate switches of a multi wire connection to a controller.
    The LED Remote is fairly chunky because it includes all the functionality to operate a separate display if indeed you want one. That separate display can be fairly basic and its functionality is controlled by the LED Remote rather than on the display. Alternatively the LED Remote can operate with no separate display or via blutooth with a smartphone.
    Happy to be corrected if any of that is wrong…………..or supplemented if anyone has further insight.

  169. [QUOTE=”Mikerb, post: 410293, member: 3930″]
    What will not switch on? What bike….what system components?
    [/QUOTE]
    E160rsx . I turn it on, the battery level light moves up and down and then it’s dead, app won’t connect, nothing.
    Was great for a mile and a half.
    It’s brought back fond memories of my Levo😀

  170. [QUOTE=”Bomble, post: 410303, member: 1765″]
    E160rsx . I turn it on, the battery level light moves up and down and then it’s dead, app won’t connect, nothing.
    Was great for a mile and a half.
    It’s brought back fond memories of my Levo😀
    [/QUOTE]
    first ride…….or something that happened after a few rides??

  171. id say it is more about total controll over there products and forcing you to buy new if you want the latests and greatest fetures like apple ect.

    they dont want you to even fix these things tho they did release a service kit for the cx and performance motors gen2 but thats about it and nothing ever since.

    i have kept my bike going now since 2014 and my last upgrade was the kiox display but with the new smart frame batts could mean the end of my bike if they stop making them and that time will come soon i bet just a good job i found one in stock as peter cant get any for 18 months so those orders will be filled and that will be my last batt from bosch i think.

    i want a faster lighter more powerfull bike and none of this smart shit to track you 247 via a app what next speeding fines or motors locked down via wifi link is where this is all going as it is clear they want rid off dongles yet they made the defeat device for vw for loads of money 😂 .

    at least they now do the sclass motor version but i bet you wont see that on any mtb as that is what i wanted in the first place.

    display wise all i really want is the batts % 1-100 or the batts voltage and a small wireless remote like the one i cant have :rolleyes:

    all i use is off and turbo anyway and only use the display for the batts % and have no use for the rest of it.

  172. [QUOTE=”Mikerb, post: 410305, member: 3930″]
    first ride…….or something that happened after a few rides??
    [/QUOTE]
    Picked up today and the first ride, that’s why I’ve been bugging you the last few days for your thoughts on the bike😀

  173. [QUOTE=”shockwave, post: 410306, member: 24584″]
    id say it is more about total controll over there products and forcing you to buy new if you want the latests and greatest fetures like apple ect.

    they dont want you to even fix these things tho they did release a service kit for the cx and performance motors gen2 but thats about it and nothing ever since.

    i have kept my bike going now since 2014 and my last upgrade was the kiox display but with the new smart frame batts could mean the end of my bike if they stop making them and that time will come soon i bet just a good job i found one in stock as peter cant get any for 18 months so those orders will be filled and that will be my last batt from bosch i think.

    i want a faster lighter more powerfull bike and none of this smart shit to track you 247 via a app what next speeding fines or motors locked down via wifi link is where this is all going as it is clear they want rid off dongles yet they made the defeat device for vw for loads of money 😂 .

    at least they now do the sclass motor version but i bet you wont see that on any mtb as that is what i wanted in the first place.

    display wise all i really want is the batts % 1-100 or the batts voltage and a small wireless remote like the one i cant have :rolleyes:

    all i use is off and turbo anyway and only use the display for the batts % and have no use for the rest of it.
    [/QUOTE]
    With the emtb market changing so fast I’m impressed your 8/9 year old bike is still going, even more impressed you have fitted a Kiox to it👍

  174. if it was not for peter my bike whould be long dead but now have the kiox new cx motor from peter and new batt so a good few more years left out of it yet 😉

    my orignal 400w batt still works and charges just wont get 5 miles out of it.

  175. [QUOTE=”Bomble, post: 410307, member: 1765″]
    Picked up today and the first ride, that’s why I’ve been bugging you the last few days for your thoughts on the bike😀
    [/QUOTE]
    OK…sad news …obviously you will take the bike back to be fixed. One thing you could try if that is difficult or means a delay , is to charge the battery in the LED Remote. You can do that via the USB C port on the LED Remote …….recommendation is max 5v and 600 Ma so using a laptop would be best ( most laptop USB ports deliver 500 ma) . The battery probably arrives with minimal charge in it and then the LED Remote is switched on quite a bit without the bike being ridden when being set up in the shop…..so it is probably totally discharged. Let me know how you get on.

  176. [QUOTE=”Bomble, post: 410303, member: 1765″]
    It’s brought back fond memories of my Levo😀
    [/QUOTE]
    Sorry, but :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

  177. Cheers Mike, I’ll give it a try in the morning.
    Did you see my pictures in the Whyte section?

  178. [QUOTE=”Bomble, post: 410320, member: 1765″]
    Cheers Mike, I’ll give it a try in the morning.
    Did you see my pictures in the Whyte section?
    [/QUOTE]
    i will look now

  180. [QUOTE=”Tower, post: 418140, member: 26006″]
    Bombie,

    Don’t want to get your hopes up, but:

    Picked my 2023 Whyte e160 up last weekend. Didn’t have time to tune suspension or set up cockpit. Couple of local rides, no issues. Started tinkering with cockpit/suspension few days later. LED remote wasn’t where I wanted it so – unplugged the cable, moved LED mount. Plugged cable back in. Attempted to turn on – same issue as you – leds chase up and down but no start up (or connection to Flow app). Realised it must be due to not plugging cable in correctly, took a closer look, hadn’t pushed it back in until it ‘clicked’ into place. It takes a fair bit of force.

    Have you had yours apart and now have the same issue possibly? I suspect the blue leds chasing up and down but then switching off could indicate a connection issue with the LED module. On the underneath of the cable is a white mark which lines up with one on the the port, take care and check it hasn’t somehow been caught and loosened. Hope this helps bud.

    Tower

    Edit: apologies, just spotted this was July, not August. Presumably you got it sorted.
    [/QUOTE]
    Mine turned out to be the battery wasn’t clicked in properly. When the shop did the handover they insisted on showing me how the battery came out but they mustn’t have clicked it in properly.

  181. [QUOTE=”Bomble, post: 418166, member: 1765″]
    Mine turned out to be the battery wasn’t clicked in properly. When the shop did the handover they insisted on showing me how the battery came out but they mustn’t have clicked it in properly.
    [/QUOTE]
    FFS! 😅 Glad it was something simple matey.

    Did my first proper ride tonight, just under 16 miles. Awesome piece of kit! 👍

  182. [QUOTE=”Tower, post: 418256, member: 26006″]
    FFS! 😅 Glad it was something simple matey.

    Did my first proper ride tonight, just under 16 miles. Awesome piece of kit! 👍
    [/QUOTE]
    Agreed, very impressive bikes.

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