What's new with the Giant 400 Wh battery on the lightweight Trance?

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It seems Giant forgot about emtbforums for the launch of the new and lightweight Trance X Advanced E+ Elite. Which I think is sad. At least it saved me the stress of figuring out how to fit such a long name into a headline.

Much has been said about the bike by other media, but I wanted to look closer at the 400 Wh battery. Usually we get 360 Wh batteries, and usually, they aren't big enough to run a full power 85 Nm motor. Why is the new Energypak 400 bigger and more powerful. Dare we hope for new battery chemistry? Watch me speculate in this video, or keep reading.


Giant offers part of the answer. The new battery doesnt contain the regular 21700 cell found in the 360 Wh batteries. Giant has gone for a slightly bigger 22700 cell. It's just 1 mm wider. Is that the explaination, or could we be looking at new cell chemistry? A bit of basic maths leaves me disappointed.

Maths​

A 400 Wh battery has to be running 20 cells to get anywhere near 400 Wh. The cell capacity has to be 5,56 Ah, that's about 10% more than the 5Ah 21700 currently being used. Calculating the cell volume gives about the same result, 10% bigger volume. There is no indication of improved battery tech, it's all down to the bigger cell.

22700-21700.jpg


Still good​

There are some signficant advantages using the 22700 cells. The max rated discharge current is very likely increased, perhaps by 5-10%. And that's probably enough to power the 85Nm motor without risking severe battery degradation. Also, we're looking at a 10% increase in capacity, which is good.

This cell isn't completely new to Giant. They've already introduced the Energypak 800, that's basically two 400's.

energypak800-01.JPG
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knut7
Knut Nes
Main editor at emtbforums.com and owner of emtb.no.
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Comments

Bengy22
Interestingly I know that somewhat recently that the lg INR21700-M58T (or the re-wrapped vapcell F58) has been seen on the market and on a ebike, I wonder if this is the cell they are using at its got a claimed capacity of 5800mah and its minimum lines up almost exactly with what giant is claiming at 5570mah. I also know that the cell has dimensions slightly larger than a 21700 which makes me think giant could just claim its a 22700 as its closer to 22mm diameter even though its naming is still 21700
 
knut7
Yeah, not impossible. It seems no one is making 22700 cells, google shows up nothing useful, so it could just be Giant is calling them 22700 to differientiate.
 
wildsau2
So the energy density is the same? nothing magic! But a big hype in Giants marketing. Reduce the battery capacity by 400wh and you get a super duper light EMTB.
The other thing is, there are more and more 21700 cells than 18650 cells on new bikes. Would be interesting to compare those cell types brand independent.
thanks for this vid 👍🏾 good content as always
 
Expidia
"It seems Giant forgot about emtbforums for the launch of the new and lightweight Trance Giant . . . " Maybe Giant didn't just forget about the EMTB forums and they are punishing this forum for us discussing too much Giant's frame cracking issues and their slow to poor customer service in resolving customer complaints. I for one, sold my new Giant and moved onto Trek who has much better customer service after the sale.

Also, as others have mentioned their non removable battery at only 400 watt is a deal breaker. They rushed this model to market to get the marketing advertising glory of a ightweight 85 Nm bike with only a 400 watt battery so you can't order a 2nd expensive 400 watt battery to carry in a back pack. Sure they are using higher capacity cells and you can dial down the power, but IMO that's all marketing smoke and mirrors for their I'm guessing over 1Ok price. The Orbea Rise in aluminum sure, appears like a better deal to me if I had to buy another Ebike.

Even though they say they are bringing out a removable battery, maybe an 800 watt and a cheaper aluminum model . . . it will already be too little too late as their competitors will have already surpassed this model in better features. It's all going to be a hard pill to swallow for early adopters of this 10k plus model.
 
sparrow
This will be a great bike for my riding. I do a lot of “power hour” rides before/after work. Then longer trail rides a handful of times a month. With fast motor tuning and option for 200wh range extender (or even two) this will do what I want out of a bike.

This new cell Panasonic is producing exclusively for Giant is the only way one can get 80+NM at 400wh

Trek/Transition/Specialized light eMTB are too under powered for my power hour, and generally have no use for burly enduro bikes.
 
sparrow
Expidia said:
"It seems Giant forgot about emtbforums for the launch of the new and lightweight Trance Giant . . . " Maybe Giant didn't just forget about the EMTB forums and they are punishing this forum for us discussing too much Giant's frame cracking issues and their slow to poor customer service in resolving customer complaints. I for one, sold my new Giant and moved onto Trek who has much better customer service after the sale.

Also, as others have mentioned their non removable battery at only 400 watt is a deal breaker. They rushed this model to market to get the marketing advertising glory of a ightweight 85 Nm bike with only a 400 watt battery so you can't order a 2nd expensive 400 watt battery to carry in a back pack. Sure they are using higher capacity cells and you can dial down the power, but IMO that's all marketing smoke and mirrors for their I'm guessing over 1Ok price. The Orbea Rise in aluminum sure, appears like a better deal to me if I had to buy another Ebike.

Even though they say they are bringing out a removable battery, maybe an 800 watt and a cheaper aluminum model . . . it will already be too little too late as their competitors will have already surpassed this model in better features. It's all going to be a hard pill to swallow for early adopters of this 10k plus model.
Click to expand...
They’ve had removable 800wh batteries, 250wh range extenders for a couple years. And full suspension eMTBs at super low prices for longer. This new Trance Elite is in a niche no one is doing.
 
NicoMTB
Does any one know if this (the 200w extender) will fit other giants? As the current extender pack does not fit on reign medium... And Giant has done nothing about it...
 
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Yetibos
Hi,

Back to this topic and the Bosch's new batteries... Why is it better to use 22700 cells instead of 21700 cells?

I fully agree that larger cells have a better discharge current, but is this really necessary?

Looking at Panasonic cells, and according to Panasonic's safety data sheet from Giant batteries:

Giant 800Wh battery information:
  • 40 cell units
  • 22700 cells
  • 811 Wh
  • 36V
The Pro2 motor will require 20.83A to reach maximum power (750W).

My point is, 21700 cells should be more than enough to power Giant Pro2 motor... So why did Giant decide to install 22700 cells?
 
Yetibos
I calculated 800wh battery with 21700 cells could provide: 20,88Ah
And with 22700: 22,54Ah

Both configuration will provide max 40A
 
knut7
Hey. I haven't looked into the 22700 cells since I wrote this article. Nice to see the data sheet. I believe one (the?) reason Giant went with the 22700 cells was to build a small battery with a higher current output than what was available back then. The Energypak 800 was released like over 3 years ago, wasn't it? The more energy dense 5.56 and 5.8 Ah 21700 cells weren't available back then.

It was a good chioice by Giant I think. They could use the full-power Yamaha motor on a 10s2p battery and the capacity was bumped from 360 Wh. It did come with a bit of a weight increase. Each cell is about 5 g heavier, making it 100 g in total. Which is fine. The other option they had, to get higher current output, was going with a 30 cell 21700 battery (540 Wh). Or possibly a 30 cell 18650 battery (380 Wh), but I'm not sure it would be able to deliver much more current, and the energy density would be slightly worse.

This is just my guess, but I think Giant decided the 5 Ah 21700 cell wasn't powerful enough for the motor as they wanted it to output high enough current at lower SOC and temperatures. These cells usually are rated at about 10 A (or slightly over) at 50% SOC and 20*C. Running the battery at around max discharge current is bad for battery health. And with increased internal resistance, the efficiency drops as more energy is lost to heat.
 
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